Fur Farming to be banned within 3 years!

by old codger - pensioner Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:00

If you believe the promises of a party that has reneged on all its promises Namely the Green s then i fear you will be in for dissapiontment.
There is now no difference between the Greens and Fianna Fail. Lies and deciept are now the main ethics for politicians who are afraid of being punished by the electorate. All promises will be put on the long finger and when not implimented they will find all kinds of excuses.

by coka Sun Oct 11, 2009 15:57

"If you believe the promises of a party that has reneged on all its promises Namely the Greens then i fear you will be in for dissapiontment.
There is now no difference between the Greens and Fianna Fail. Lies and deciept are now the main ethics for politicians who are afraid of being punished by the electorate. All promises will be put on the long finger and when not implimented they will find all kinds of excuses."

Wherever you go you will always find those who will cynically lambast the government even when they make a genuine commitment to the betterment of this country.
If 'Codger' believes that the Greens have "reneged" on all of their policies, why doesn't he outline how this is the case? If he believes that our government are deceitful liars, why doesn't he state why this is so? I think 'Codger' is a wee bit bitter and cynical. 'Codger' should actually give the Green party a chance to act on this issue before he spits on them for not delivering on it.
Also, the fact that the two parties had to negotiate for over 60 hours to draw up a programme for government and to prevent a walk-out by the greens should indicate, even to the most casual of observers, that the Greens and FF dont exactly see eye to eye on central issues.

I think that the phasing out of Fur Farming is a great development in the progress of this country and well done to the Green party for negotiating this into the document. Also, I think I'm right in stating that this isnt the only thing present in the document relating to animal protectionism?

I do wonder though what CAFT have actually achieved by distributing "200,000" leaflets and by holding "400" demonstrations throughout the years. As a result of their campaigns, has a single fur bearing animal actually been saved in Ireland?
I do know that no change in the law whatsoever has come about as a result of CAFTs lobbying and, despite protests, fur has actually seen an increase in demand over the last few years.
Yes, "fur-free successes" have been achieved but does this not simply lead protesters into a false sense of achievement? I mean CAFT, ARAN, AFAR etc. have not changed the Fur status-quo in any way whatsoever in Ireland; unless I didn't have a particular interest in animal issues, I wouldn't have the daftest notion what CAFT etc. actually stood for.

"A phase out ban is simply not good enough"? In my opinion, its more than what an annual 'fur farm expose' for the next thousand years could ever hope to achieve.

by Bemused Sun Oct 11, 2009 19:25

A wise man, an environmentalist himself, once described the Green Party to me as a silly frivolous party for silly frivolous people.

Anyone whose main reaction to the news that the Greens have decided to support a massive bailout of the banks and the imposition of unbelievable amounts of debt on the general population is a sense of triumph that a handful of fur farms will shut down certainly deserves to be regarded as silly and frivolous themselves. In fact I can think of a few more precise ephithets but using them would probably get this comment removed.

A particularly foolish Green Party member even appeared on the radio to tell us that he and his allies would support the Programme for Government if it included a ban and fur farms. Words fail me.

by Fur Coat No knickers Sun Oct 11, 2009 19:34

This biggest problem with fur farming has been the escape of these alien predators into the irish countryside were they have wiped out whole colonies of native birds and threatened species like the Corn Crake and Common Scoter.

by Bernie Wright - Alliance for Animal Rights [AFAR] Sun Oct 11, 2009 19:41 AFAr po box 4734. Dublin.1 0872651720

fur, stag hunting and badger snaring restrictions
BEST DAY IN 20 years of CAMPAIGNING FOR ANIMALS.!

TODAY THE FOLLOWING CHANGES WERE PASSED…..

• STAG HUNTING ENDS AFTER MARCH 2010
• FUR FARMING PHASED OUT IN 3 YEARS.
• BADGER CULLING ENDING WHEN VACCINE AVAILABLE AGAINST TB.
• ANIMAL WELFARE BILL SIMILAR TO SCOTLANDS ON THE CARDS.
• PUPPY FARMING LEGISLATION WITHOUT EXEMPTIONS PASSED(previous to today).

Animals will be far better off now with stronger legislation in the pipeline.More news on this will follow ….
Thank you GREEN PARTY …THANK YOU JOHN GORMLEY.

Animals will be far better off now with stronger legislation in the pipeline.More news on this will follow ….
Thank you GREEN PARTY …THANK YOU JOHN GORMLEY.

Proposed Renewed Programme for Government- More on the GREEN PARTY WEBSITE.

10th October 2009

ref: pg24/25

Animal Welfare

• We will enact the Animal Health and Welfare Bill, which will consolidate and update existing legislation in relation to the health and welfare of our nation's animals. Among the provisions of the legislation will be a commitment to:

o Adopt the principles and 5 freedoms set out in the recent Scottish Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, particularly in relation to cruelty and neglect, to ensure that the welfare of animals is properly protected and that the penalties for offenders are increased significantly,

o Replace the culling of badgers with more effective and humane methods of control

o Phase-out fur farming over three years

o End stag hunting

Animals need protection

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Sun Oct 11, 2009 21:00

Before you eulogise the 'Greens' and 'Saint' John too much, there's no ban on hare coursing which was supposed to be a core Green demand! Yet another in a long list of Green sell-outs. They're the world leaders on sell-outs. It's a wonder the Animal Rights Alliance didn't comment on this abandonment of yet another core Green principle.

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Sun Oct 11, 2009 21:42

'coka' is obviously a 'Green Party' apologist! Yet another person who eulogising the 'Green's just because Fianna Fáilure gave a couple of 'promises' on animal welfare (see article http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94406), which should been implemented when the Fianna Fáil/Green coaltion was formed after the 2007 election, 2 years ago! 'old codger - pensioner' (that's his real title! NOT 'Codger' coka'!) is 100% right when he says "If you believe the promises of a party that has reneged on all its promises Namely the Greens then i fear you will be in for dissapiontment.
There is now no difference between the Greens and Fianna Fail. Lies and deciept are now the main ethics for politicians who are afraid of being punished by the electorate. All promises will be put on the long finger and when not implimented they will find all kinds of excuses."
"If you believe the promises of a party that has reneged on all its promises Namely the Greens then i fear you will be in for dissapiontment." Hear! Hear! Well said 'old codger - pensioner'! I wouldn't trust a word from Fianna Fáil or now unfortunately from the Greens either, amd neither does 'old codger - pensioner', 'Bemused' or 'Fur Coat No knickers'.

by w Sun Oct 11, 2009 22:16

Hare coursing and fox hunting stay legal? WTF?

A few fur farms shut maybe next year or the year after, or maybe never (remember the promise to have a referendum on the rights of children- 3 years is a long time in politics) and what will become of the animals in the fur farms anyway- are they going to find them homes? Will fur be illegal to sell? No it'll be imported from fur farms in Eastern Europe where conditions are even worse.

Foie Gras still on the menu? Arts Council grants for circuses with wild animals in rotten cramped cages?

A good day for animal rights? Are you still on the same planet- or are you on planet Bertie too now?

by Jimmiebond Sun Oct 11, 2009 22:25

A ban fur farms shows the deluded nature of both the greens and the animal welfare groups. Farmers and their families and workers without work for the welfare of animals that will never exist as they'll never be bred in the first place... Animals that are kept as well as any animals on farms throughout the country. No doubt the long term plan is to ban all farming, let them wander around uncultivated land at their leisure, while we all eat celery and cabbage and drink rain water! Urban environmentalists dictating agricultural and rural issues... an absolute joke!!

by Coka Sun Oct 11, 2009 22:27

I am not only an apologist for the Greens, I am a full supporter of the party.
There seems to be a lot of resentment towards our government on this website and a lot of negative claims have been made about the character of the Green party. Can anybody please provide a basis for these accusations of dishonesty, because all of the above posters have completely failed to back up their criticisms of the party.

Secondly, I will reiterate again that people should first give the greens a CHANCE to act on their commitments, as outlined in the Programme for government TWO DAYS AGO, before they spit on the party over its failure to deliver on them.

by laffan Sun Oct 11, 2009 22:36

"No doubt the long term plan is to ban all farming"

Instead of making foolish unsubstantiated claims, try to come to terms with reality. Animals have rights.

The Greens are only concerned with their own skins.

by Bemused Sun Oct 11, 2009 23:03

Good grief is about the politest response I can make to this asinine statement from AFAR.

It is difficult to describe the depths of self-absorption, the sheer myopia, which it takes to react to the news that the Green Party will support one of the largest transfers of wealth ever suggested in this country, away from ordinary citiizens and to the bankers and speculators, with a gloating press release about fur farms.

As I said in response to an almost equally reprehensible statement by another animal rights group, an environmentalist friend once accurately described the Green Party as a silly frivolous party for silly frivolous people. AFAR have shown in this statement that silliness and frivolity extends beyond the boundaries of the Green Party.

by Even more bemused Sun Oct 11, 2009 23:34

This "Bemused" person is a perfect example of everything that's wrong with the world. 150000 animals are killed every year on these farms, and still there's someone who thinks it would be worthwhile keeping them open just for the sake of money. NO amount of money is worth 150000 lives!!! How could anyone even think about any of that economic crap when that's what's at stake?

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Sun Oct 11, 2009 23:48

'Coka' or 'coka' (whatever the hell your title is!) you've just proved just how dishonest you and so-called 'Green Party' are by using 2 different author titles! What about Gormley getting a chaffeur driven limo to pick him up at Holyhead at enormous expense to use the PAYE taxpayer? What flimsy 'excuse' will you 'Coka' or 'coka' (which is it?) give for this gross misuse of taxpayers' money? Oh I forgot! Many of the 'Greens' are businesspeople and the self employed, who are NOT PAYE workers and who are notorious for using every dodge and scam to avoid paying their fair share of tax. And so much for the high and mighty 'Greens'. you'se did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about O'Donoghue and his gross abuse of our (the PAYE worker's) public money? Are you 'Coka' or 'coka' (which?) going to stand over the future savage attacks on workers. pensioners. the unemployed and the sick that will be launched in December's budget? Of course, the Green Party is almost exclusively made up of upper middle class and upper class people, who have no connection with the majority of ordinary folk. 1 example of this is that there's NO commitment in the 'Revised Programme for Government' to building the METRO North, which would service mainly working class communities on Dublin's Northside, as well as providing a high speed rail link to the airport..

by barry Sun Oct 11, 2009 23:49

i've been trying to think of a way to put this without being offensive to people so here goes:

should you be one of the people who thinks this is a good deal, please, if we ever meet, at a gathering, party, climate camp, whatever, please do not mention to me that you think this was a good deal.

please tell me that you figured that a deal this bad would make make people more militant, more revolutionary, less inclined to accept representative democracy.

please tell me anything other than that you believe that subjecting the irish people to nama and to a fianna fail government in exchange for MAYBE ending fur farming and stag hunts was a good deal.

by Jimmiebond Sun Oct 11, 2009 23:51

My animals have the right to a healthy and happy live for as long as I choose the keep them alive. They have these rights as I, the owner of the animals, choose to give them these rights. Animals in themselves have no rights, how can they? Only those with direct control over the life of an animal can decide on the animals so called rights.
Just because you and the greens subscribe to a ethical philosophy which maintains living things have rights, doesn't mean everyone else does. And a minority party of elitist urbanists in a despised and useless government should not be allowed to try to implement your ethics and morality in an area you obviously have no expertise in.

by John Fitzgerald - Campaign for the Abolition of Cruel Sports Mon Oct 12, 2009 01:41 jfitzg3 at eircom dot net (056) 7725543

As a campaigner against a number of viciously cruel bloodsports and other animal cruelty practises for more than three decades, I welcome the Green Party's achievement in getting those pledges included in the revised PROGRAMME FOR GOVERNMENT.

The campaign to get hare coursing and fox hunting banned coninues...but meanwhile we have that vital breakthrough in the struggle to eliminate for the Irish countryside the vile presence of the sadistic and barbaric stag hunters...these so-called "sportspeople" whose idea of fun has been to chase semi-tame deer for hours at a time across country...until the majestic creatures drop from exhaustion, covered from head to foot in cuts sustained along the route...from barbed wire and brambles.

These delightful "sportspeople" enjoy hounding an animal to exhaustion and injury, take pleasure from pursuing it on horseback or in a jeep, and then watching it collapse in a pathetic heap after its lungs give out...or they slurp from whiskey flasks or stirrup cups as they observe a stag swimming across a river to escape their hounds...often drowning in the process.

They laugh and cheer as the hulking wreck of a once healthy creature cowers in terror from the hounds and hunt officials, its eyes bulging with fear. And they smear the animal's blood on their faces to celebrate the culmination of another successful hunt.

I have campaigned for so long to end this sickening cruelty and I make no apology to anyone...including those TV and radio commentators who sneeringly refer to the animal protectiom measures in the Programme for Government as if these counted for nothing.

They'd think differently if they were the ones being set up as live bait by "sportspeople".

by Bazooka Joe Mon Oct 12, 2009 02:03

"There seems to be a lot of resentment towards our government on this website and a lot of negative claims have been made about the character of the Green party. Can anybody please provide a basis for these accusations of dishonesty, because all of the above posters have completely failed to back up their criticisms of the party."

Yes, there is a lot of resentment towards the government on this website and among the Irish people in general. We are sick of them handing out our money to the fat cat banks to repay their loans from the fat cat banks abroad while they and their chums live high on the hog on our money. There is a lot of hostility towards the Green Party in particular on this website because there are a lot of people here who would have given the Green Party a number one vote and they feel betrayed. They feel like they were taken for a ride. They thought they were voting for a party with integrity and now they realise the Greens have none. As one such person said to me earlier, "I would sooner vote Fine Gael next time than Green." And that was from a person who has detested Fine Gael all their life and still does. So if you Green turkeys don't realise it by now, you are gone gone gone at the next election for a long time thanks to your own dishonesty to your own core voters and pretented values.

You were dishonest on Shannon, Tara and the Corrib for starters. Your expensive limos and designer suits may impress your new south side rent-a-vote membership who turn up to boulster the Green Party whenever needed but the 600 who voted this weekend will not get one of you elected next time out.

I too would have given you a number one or two but never again. I've never see a party that more honestly deserves the title quisling or sleeveen. My skin crawls when I see your grinning idiots trying to sell us NAMA or whatever Fianna Fail has ordered you to sell. You can stop trying to spin the Green Party becuase you are spinning a dead horse and all that is flying out it horse sh.....

by Ed Mon Oct 12, 2009 02:23

It is true that there is no ban on either hare coursing or fox hunting; nor a ban on foie gras or circuses. It’s also true that there are more non human animal related issues that the Greens have policies on and on which they have not delivered and it is also true that the Greens have implemented nothing in the first 2 ½ years in Government in relation to non human animals apart from starting the ball rolling on the Animal Health and Welfare Bill.

The Greens have also reneged on areas that they had positions on outside of non human animals.

However it is also a fact that the Greens have 6 members in Dail Eireann and are in coalition with a political party which has a terrible record when it comes to non human animals. They were always going to find it tough to negotiate everything they wanted within the program for government. This is not ideal.
The Greens have now added some areas relating to non humans into the Program for Government. It is not ideal but it is something. If the Greens renege on these commitments then is the time to criticize them but to criticize them now for past performance on these particular current issues is I feel premature.

The “few fur farms” that were spoken of kills over 170,000 animals each year. A further 30,000 to 50,000 animals are caged for so called breeding purposes. Each animal is caged for life, their needs are continually suppressed, their interests continually denied and their rights violated. This leads to self mutilation, cannibalism and psychotic conditions.
These places should have been outlawed a long time ago.

The animals are viewed as a source of revenue. The fur farmers will cash in the skins they rip from their bodies. All of them will be killed. None will be released.
If and when this becomes legislation, it will save other animals from this fate in the future.
If or when this becomes legislation, it will not outlaw the sale of fur and fur will continue to be imported into Ireland to be sold in shops. This again is far from ideal. But the legislation does have significance as it does support a trend of countries which are outlawing fur factory farms. And trends create change.

This year alone Bosnia Herzigivina passed legislation outlawing fur factory farms, the Israel government are discussing outlawing both fur factory farms and the sale of fur, the government of the Netherlands are discussing outlawing the exploitation of minks on fur factory farms (They have already banned the exploitation of foxes and chinchillas), Denmark passed legislation outlawing the exploitation of foxes on fur factory farms,
A ban has passed about the sale of cat and dog fur throughout Europe and a partial ban on the sale of seal fur within Europe has been voted on by the Council of Europe and the European Parliament.

The level of conditions in Eastern Europe in relation to Ireland is debatable and irrelevant as the conditions in both regions ensure the animals are caged and endure a horrible existence. A report conducted by the European Commission concluded in typical understated fashion that the current caging system "impairs mink[s] welfare," and "the typical fox cage does not provide for important needs of foxes.” This report was the most comprehensive of its kind and should have been damning to this industry but was merely ignored by the decision makers within Fianna Fail who could have and should have banned this a long time ago.

When Bernie says it’s a good day for animal rights, I assume she is comparing the previous history of Ireland to last Saturday in relation to non human animals. The situation in Ireland and the world is one where factory farming is becoming the norm. There is little to nothing that suggests that any thought for non human animals is taken seriously. Non human animals are firmly established as property, to be sold, bought, “breeded”, mutilated or killed at a whim. More often if not always this is for pleasure, tradition or convenience. And yet most of us assert that we care about what happens to non human animals but then tuck into a hamburger. Bernie is probably wrong about a good day because on that day tens of thousands of animals will have been killed in Ireland for human based desires just like any other day of the year, but still it may have been a better day than the day before.

The comment about “animals before people” is unfair and shows a lack of knowledge about animal rights philosophy. Within the idea of Animal Rights, humans are also included. The violation of human rights is a serious issue and just like non human rights is often ignored. It’s easy to pick out examples within Ireland and worldwide where some human rights are more enforced than others (Caucasians from a Western society seem to do better than non Caucasians from a so called third world country, in some regions women’s rights is unknown).
It is true that there is unlikely to be a campaign organized by an animal rights group regarding human rights, but this is down to many groups who already look after human rights issues. Human rights issues are well supported by animal rights activists. It is not necessary to wait for every issue concerning humans to be tackled before we can look at issues concerning non humans. Both human rights and non human rights issues can and should exist side by side.

“Farmers and their families and workers without work for the welfare of animals that will never exist as they'll never be bred in the first place... Animals that are kept as well as any animals on farms throughout the country.”
Just because an industry creates work, this does not mean that it should happen. Money is not the measure of morality. If we locked a dog within a cage for their entire life so we could kill him and skin him, the idea that we could make money from doing so would seem revolting to most people. In Ireland the animals exploited are Minks, Arctic Foxes and Red Foxes, where is the difference?
The comparison that these animals are kept as well as other animals on farms should raise eyebrows for anyone who pretends to be concerned about the interests of non human animals. In many cases this is not untrue. The millions of hens that are routinely caged and killed is an example. When are the most serious and vital interests of non human animals ever to overcome the most trivial desires of humans? On Saturday, the desire for a fashion item over the interests of minks and foxes has taken a knock. That surely is a good thing.

I believe that most people wish fur factory farming to be abolished in Ireland. The real issue I believe in the negative comments on this tread are more to do with disappointment and disgust about the NAMA issue.
This was not a good thing for the country and the comment by Bemused that this is “one of the largest transfers of wealth ever suggested in this country” sums it up. But to suggest that the publisher of this article suffers from self-absorption is unfair. Bernie’s comment that it’s the “BEST DAY IN 20 years of CAMPAIGNING FOR ANIMALS” suggest someone who has spent the last 2 decades working for others apart from herself.

The program for government contained more issues than fur factory farms and stag hunting. It’s a 40 page document with only a few lines to do with any improvements for non human animals. A lot of press centered around non human animal related issues. I know what the press are like and I believe so do many others.

The things relating to non human animals within the program for government are important issues. They are far from final. To remain quite about this would be irresponsible.
NAMA - bad. Ban on fur factory farms – Good.

by Coka Moka Latte (coka) Mon Oct 12, 2009 02:25

'AR activist', don't go loopy on me now! I really have to question the point in having a discussion with somebody who metaphorically craps their pants over the use of 'coka' rather than 'Coka' as a username.
It seems to me that you are clutching at straws if you think that a government minister availing of a service to which he is perfectly entitled is grounds to condemn a whole party as corrupt. Every government position in every bloody country comes with such unnecessary perks; it has actually been the Green party which has taken the first steps in reversing this trend in recent years in Ireland.
I also think that you should get off your high horse for just one moment. I bet you that every last fecker in this country would sneak in a cheeky ride in a complementary Merc if he/she had the opportunity; I know I would. Do you know what your problem is? You build the responsibility of a government minister to be that of a god's and then you tear them apart for being human!

And yes, brilliant observation 'AR activist', the Green party is largely made up of middle class individuals and yes I'm sure many are involved in business. The same applies for Fine Gael and the same actually applies for Labour, whose support base is now largely middle class and whose leadership is mostly middle class. Also, you dont have the slightest clue what you are talking about; my mother is a nurse and my father is unemployed. I am a green and YET, somehow, I am also 'ordinary folk.'

AR activist; let me ask you a simple question. How would you, through December's budget, rectify the country's economic predicament without cutting public sector pay, cutting child benefit, and cutting unemployment benefit which are at present much higher than European equivalents and a massive drain on the public purse? The fact of the matter is that you dont know. If you did, we wouldnt be focusing on this issue. We cant keep finding new taxes and we cant borrow forever. And during a recession, the middle class suffers big time. Dont be so prejudiced in your view and don't be an inverted snob.

Finally, Metro North is a multi billion euro capital investment thought up at the peak of the Celtic Tiger. We are, at present, borrowing E400 million a week just to balance the books; we simply cannot afford it. Dont be a classist and say that the elitist greens are discriminating against the working class because it just aint true. For the time being you can take the chip off your shoulder and shove it, along with Metro North, up your bum.

Amongst other things, the Greens have made a commitment to the maintenance of education spending, pupil-teacher ratios, free third level fees, political reform, and many animal issues. That is positive and progressive; 'AR activist' should give credit where credit is due, something which he/she has failed entirely to do.

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Mon Oct 12, 2009 02:27

'John Fitzgerald', as 'w' said in an earlier comment, "are you on planet Bertie too now?" Those 'promises' on puppy farming legislation without exemptions, and to "enact the Animal Health and Welfare Bill, which will consolidate and update existing legislation in relation to the health and welfare of our nation's animals." and to:

"o Adopt the principles and 5 freedoms set out in the recent Scottish Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, particularly in relation to cruelty and neglect, to ensure that the welfare of animals is properly protected and that the penalties for offenders are increased significantly,

o Replace the culling of badgers with more effective and humane methods of control

o Phase-out fur farming over three years

o End stag hunting" are very welcome, but that's all they are! 'Promises' and judging by the record of this Fianna Fáilure/Green Party coalition to date, I WOULDN'T trust a word out of their mouths! And as I and 'w' and others have said there's NO still ban on Hare coursing and fox hunting. which was supposed to be a 'core' 'Green' principle, but which the rest of their 'principles' has been ditched so that they can try and stay in power for another 2 years (god help us!)! And as 'Bemused' rightly says "Good grief is about the politest response I can make to this asinine statement from AFAR."

"It is difficult to describe the depths of self-absorption, the sheer myopia, which it takes to react to the news that the Green Party will support one of the largest transfers of wealth ever suggested in this country, away from ordinary citiizens and to the bankers and speculators, with a gloating press release about fur farms." Well said 'Bemused'! NAMA IS the biggest reverse ban robbery in the history of Ireland, that will bankrupt us and our kids for many years to come, and the so-called 'Greens' have no qualms about going along with this NAMA theft that will cost us billions of Euro, and necessitating mass cuts in public services to pay for it! It seems that the 'Greens' have no problem with inflicting further savage attacks on workers, the poor, the pensioners, the unemployed and the sick in December's to bail-out the banks, and the property speculators, the one's that got us into this mess in the 1st place!

I also agrre with 'Bemused' when they say "As I said in response to an almost equally reprehensible statement by another animal rights group, an environmentalist friend once accurately described the Green Party as a silly frivolous party for silly frivolous people. AFAR have shown in this statement that silliness and frivolity extends beyond the boundaries of the Green Party." Again, hear! Hear!

by ALiberation - ALiberation Mon Oct 12, 2009 02:40 aliberationnow at gmail dot com 086 3203643

Hard work begins now.
The phasing out of fur factory farms is included within the Green Party’s Program for Government which was voted upon on the 10th of October.
This is welcome news and credit must go to the Green Party at least for including these issues.
This is a big step but is far from a final step. The hard work doubles from here on.
The Program for Government set out the conditions which the Green Party will stay in a coalition government with Fianna Fail and some independent TD’s.
However, what is in the Program for Government does not mean it is legislation. For example if the government collapses then the Program for Government will follow the Green Party out of government.

The Green Party has lived up to their word so far on these issues by including them in the Program for Government and importantly the Greens will be needed to push this through as quickly as possibly.
The Program for Government is not an animal rights document but it does share common aims.

Please send an email or letter (details below) to Minister John Gormley and Senator Dan Boyle for including these issues in the Program for Government and to urge them to implement them as soon as possible.

The Green Party voted yes to a Program for Government which includes the following in relation to non human animals:
“We will enact the Animal Health and Welfare Bill, which will consolidate and update existing legislation in relation to the health and welfare of our nation’s animals. Among the provisions of the legislation will be a commitment to:
• Adopt the principles and 5 freedoms set out in the recent Scottish Animal Health and Welfare (Scotlant) Act 2006, particularly in relation to cruelty and neglect, to ensure that the welfare of animals is properly protected and that the penalties for offenders are increased significantly,
• Replace the culling of badgers with more effective and humane methods of control
• Phase-out fur farming over three years
• End Stag hunting”

Contact Details:
Senator Dan Boyle (Party Chairman)
[email protected]
[email protected]
Senator Dan Bolye (Party Chair)
99 Douglas Street,
Cork,
Ireland

Minister John Gormley (Party Leader, Minister of Enviroment, Heritage and Local Government)
[email protected]
[email protected]
Minister John Gormley (Party Leader)
Minister of Envirnoment, Heritage and Local Government,
Department of the Environment,
Heritage and Local Government,
Custom House,
Dublin 1

For more information on these issues see:
Fur factory farms:
http://aliberation.vegaplanet.org/irish.fur.farms.php
http://aliberation.vegaplanet.org/irish.fur.undercover.php
Badger killing:
http://www.badgerwatch.ie/
Stag Hunting (Select from the list on the left):
www.banbloodsports.com/

by AnimalRightsGuy Mon Oct 12, 2009 02:40

Its not us that turned our back on all of our principles in order to get into government, supported privatisation of health care, bailed out the developers and banks and put the children of taxpayers into potentially huge debt. Whilst continuing to ignore large scale animal rights violations in our community and in others where we have leverage.

As an animal rights activist and a human being, whilst I welcome (finally!!) the move to get rid of the disgusting and inhumane practice of fur farming in Ireland, I think in this case, the price is just too high if it means keeping fianna fail in govt and passing nama, bailing out the golden circle in Anglo and all the other shite they will visit on the poor in the next budget.

What many people are not taking into account is that lots of animals will suffer indirectly as a result of the hardship these policies will create in the community. Many people will take decisions to get rid of pets, farmers will not be able to afford to keep their animals properly fed and housed, donations to animal shelters and all the other animal rights causes, which are almost totally dependent on charity will dry up etc etc. for example. And the fur farms will probably go out of business on their own in this climate anyway because they are not exactly making huge profits in the first place, so they are likely not even giving much of a concession here at all, but it will certainly get us a lot of bad publicity for our causes. And that is the last thing our causes need right now because we have already been slaughtered by the media for as far back as I can remember. So much so that the first thing that comes into anyone's mind when you mention animal rights is that knee jerk balaclava clad nutcase terrorist who puts animals lives above humans image that those fucking corporations have systematically planted in the collective consciousness so they could happily get on with their industrial levels of for profit animal abuse.

So gummy gormless probably didn't go much out of his way or do us animal rights activists any major favours in offering this "concession". And why now all of a sudden? After ignoring us for so long? Its rather suspicious.

I believe it's possible that the only reason they finally even mentioned this topic in such a high profile divisive context was to engender exactly this kind of predictable backlash against animal rights advocates to help deflect attention from themselves while they continue to prop up this fianna fail nightmare, while pretending to finally be listening to some of their members. (yeah right!!)

So stop taking out your frustrations on animal rights people. Its not a case of either human rights or animal rights. Stop treating it that way. Thats illogical. It should be both. You are just playing into their hands.

Plenty of us are also advocates of human rights too and we hate fianna fail and the green party as much as the rest of you. Instead of divisively fighting with us as they would like you to, let us join together with everyone else in venting our spleens directly on the green party and fianna fail. They are no friends to either human rights or animal rights and see this "concession" for what it really is: just a cynical ploy.

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Mon Oct 12, 2009 02:47

Ed, you said "This year alone Bosnia Herzigivina passed legislation outlawing fur factory farms, the Israel government are discussing outlawing both fur factory farms and the sale of fur," This wouldn't be the same Bosnia Herzigivina where BOTH sides (the Bosnians AND the Serbs) fought each other in a brural sectarian, tribal war which DID include the maiming, torturing and murdering of animals who belonged to "the other side? And as regards Israel, they sure do stand out as shining beacons of human rights! This of course being the same Israel that hassles, humiliates, imprisons, murders and tortures Palestinian civilians on a daily basis! Aaaaarrrrggghh! The hypocrisy of it all makes mad and sick! So sick and mad that I feel like thrashing the computer!

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Mon Oct 12, 2009 03:16

Well said 'AnimalRightsGuy'! As you rightly say "What many people are not taking into account is that lots of animals will suffer indirectly as a result of the hardship these policies will create in the community. Many people will take decisions to get rid of pets, farmers will not be able to afford to keep their animals properly fed and housed, donations to animal shelters and all the other animal rights causes, which are almost totally dependent on charity will dry up etc etc. for example." Policies that this Fianna Fáilure/Green Party are unrepentedly implementing and which the 'Greens' have no problem implementing (see http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94401) where a Green Party supporter 'coka' tries to defend the indefensible! It would be funny seeing them trying to defend the indefensible if it wasn't so serious! What will the 'Greens' have to say about it? More hypocritical, sanctimonious, pious lecturing and tut-tutting no doubt from gormless Gormley about people getting rid of their animals and pets and not taking proper care of their animals and pets because of the policies of the government that they're part of! That too is animal cruelty, that's been caused by government "Thactherite slash and burn" policies, to quote SIPTU's Jack O'Connor.

by Ed Mon Oct 12, 2009 03:46

To the comment: “My animals have the right to a healthy and happy live for as long as I choose the keep them alive. They have these rights as I, the owner of the animals, choose to give them these rights. Animals in themselves have no rights, how can they? Animals in themselves have no rights, how can they? Only those with direct control over the life of an animal can decide on the animals so called rights.”

Rights are often seen as a contentious issue even for humans. If they exist on what basis do they exist. Do they exist in nature or are they a social construction. Do humans have rights?
If it is believed that rights don’t exist then there is little that can be said of rights. If it is believed that rights do exist then they belong to those whose interests are protected by them. They can not belong to those who have “direct control” over the life of the party who the rights are there to protect. If the same situation applied between humans we’d call that tyranny, kidnapping etc. For example, a human right would include a right that protects them against murder. If someone else has “direct control” over this person’s right not to be murdered then this is not a right. If it is believed that rights do exist then they should exist equally according to equal interests. If someone has an interest to not experience pain, then a right should offer the same protection from experiencing pain regardless of the body that someone happens to be in.

To the comment "Ed, you said "This year alone Bosnia Herzigivina passed legislation outlawing fur factory farms, the Israel government are discussing outlawing both fur factory farms and the sale of fur," This wouldn't be the same Bosnia Herzigivina where BOTH sides (the Bosnians AND the Serbs) fought each other in a brural sectarian, tribal war which DID include the maiming, torturing and murdering of animals who belonged to "the other side? And as regards Israel, they sure do stand out as shining beacons of human rights! This of course being the same Israel that hassles, humiliates, imprisons, murders and tortures Palestinian civilians on a daily basis! Aaaaarrrrggghh! The hypocrisy of it all makes mad and sick! So sick and mad that I feel like thrashing the computer!"

Yep that’s right, both Bosnia Herzigovina and Israel. I am not condoning what these countries have done in other areas. I used them as an example of what trend is occurring about the fur industry. I would be interested to know if Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation knows of any country that is free from criticism in every area.
Irish history and present is full of atrocities and so is every other country and region in the world that I can think of. But I stand to be corrected. The other countries and regions were Denmark, the Netherlands and the EU. All have a shady past and present with both human and non human rights.

If I’m a hypocrite then it’s not obvious from the above comment. I still think that the negative comments here are to do with NAMA. If you fancy marginalizing a movement that has more in common with many movements on the left for what the press has circulated then all that I can see is the “curse of the left”. And if it’s an intention to kick the animal rights movement black and blue to vent frustration then go ahead.
But I’ll say this again before it happens and before it happens let me know which part of what I have to say next that there is disagreement about.
NAMA – Bad, Ban on Fur Factory Farms – Good.

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Mon Oct 12, 2009 05:04

'coka' you say "It seems to me that you are clutching at straws if you think that a government minister availing of a service to which he is perfectly entitled is grounds to condemn a whole party as corrupt." I, and most people don't think that it's acceptable that someone can get a chaffeur driven limo to pick them up at Holyhead at our (the PAYE taxpayer's expense). Just because it may be legal doesn't make it right! What's wrong with using public transport? You don't have this nonsense in Europe! There, Government Ministers, and even Heads of State often use Public Transport. Sure there are times when they have to get to places quickly and then they would to travel by car with a police escort, but they don't abuse it like here. Then you say "I bet you that every last fecker in this country would sneak in a cheeky ride in a complementary Merc if he/she had the opportunity; I know I would." Yes that may be true, but to repeat myself, that doesn't make it right!

Then in the next paragraph you say that "Also, you dont have the slightest clue what you are talking about; my mother is a nurse and my father is unemployed." Firstly, I'm sorry your da is unemployed, and I don't wish that on anyone. But are you not in the least bit concerned that it looks like the government are going to try to attempt to cut welfare payments in December's budget? I use the word "attempt'" because if they try to cut welfare payments it will unlease such a tidal wave of anger on the streets that will seriously destablise the country, and quite possibly lead to the fall of the government as well! And you ma is a nurse. I'm sure you must from her on a daily basis the hardship she is working and the hardship been suffered by patients too, that will only get worse as a result of the cuts that will occur in December's budget! Cuts that will be needed to fund the biggest reverse bank robbery in Irish history, namely the NAMA bailout of the banks and the property speculators, the very ones that got us into this mess in the 1st place! Also these cuts are been forced on us by Brussels. The Unelected EU Commission adopted the "Pact for Stability and Growth that makes no allowances whatsoever for a country going through a reccession! Also, if as seems likely that there will be strikes in the health service in the next few months, will your ma pass the pickets and become a strikebreaker?

In the next paragraph you ask "How would you, through December's budget, rectify the country's economic predicament without cutting public sector pay, cutting child benefit, and cutting unemployment benefit which are at present much higher than European equivalents and a massive drain on the public purse? All cutting public sector pay, cutting child benefit, and cutting unemployment will do is lead to a further deflationary, downward spiral in the economy by supressing consumer vemand even further! That's the mistake that most governments, with the honourable exception of Franklin D. Roosevelt made during the last Great Depresion of the 1930's, which ensured that the Great Depression lasted for a whole decade! Thankfully most governments, with the exception of ours have learnt from this, and they introduced stimulus packages. But no! Not here in Ireland with it's government addicted to what SIPTU's Jack O'Connor rightly calls "Thatcherite slash and burn" policies. The reason why child benefit, and unemployment benefit is much higher than our European equivalents is because the cost of living is much higher here! Simple economics! Then you say "We cant keep finding new taxes and we cant borrow forever." Rubbish! All studies have shown that tax take in Ireland is lower than the international average. What is high is the disproportionate level of tax levied on the PAYE worker who has no option to dodge paying tax unlike the business community! I know someone who has a business who's able to write off everything as "business expenses," They claim expenses for air travel, for train travel, for their car travel, for dining out in expensive top of the range restaurants! It's all written off against the already pitiful amount that they he would be paying! Then he has his account do the accounts in such a way that he reduces his taxes even further! And he's not unique! You can be bloody sure that many other businesses are employing the same tax evading methods too! This is not right and it should be stopped if the government had any guts! Our tax take from nusinesses and the rich is well below the international norm as has been shown by survey after survey, so there's plenty of scope of additional taxes there! Folks, as the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) has said we have to make a choice whether we want a higher tax regime with decent public services as they have in Europe, or do we stick with the US style low tax regime with crap public services that we have at the moment? As regards borrowing as I say above we are severely restricted in what in we can borrow because as I say "Also these cuts are been forced on us by Brussels. The Unelected EU Commission adopted the "Pact for Stability and Growth that makes no allowances whatsover for a country going through a recession! Fortunately President Barack Obama has no such restictions on the amount that he can borrow, with the result that some sections of the US economy seem to be recovering thanks main ly to Obama's stimulus packages.

Next paragraph you say "Finally, Metro North is a multi billion euro capital investment thought up at the peak of the Celtic Tiger. We are, at present, borrowing E400 million a week just to balance the books; we simply cannot afford it. Dont be a classist and say that the elitist greens are discriminating against the working class because it just aint true. For the time being you can take the chip off your shoulder and shove it, along with Metro North, up your bum." Firstly the Metro North should have been a priority when the LUAS was been built, NOT a LUAS line serving well to do (and Green Party strongholds) Southside communities! There's far more need for the Metro North! Apart from the fact that it would serve predominantly working class communities with a lower car ownership and a higher need for public transport alternatives, it would also service and benefit more factories, as the majority of Dublin's factories are on the Northside. In addition the Metro North would also service an area of rapidly growing population, places such as Swords. Also, Dublin is the only capital city in Europe that doesn't have a high rail ling to the city centre. The Metro North will solve this problem. If the government tries to shelve the Metro North I'm warning you that there will be mass protests and civil disobience on a scale never before seen on the Northside of Dublin! You 'coka' show your contempt for the Northside in the last line of that paragraph when you say "For the time being you can take the chip off your shoulder and shove it, along with Metro North, up your bum."

Finally you say "Amongst other things, the Greens have made a commitment to the maintenance of education spending, pupil-teacher ratios, free third level fees, political reform, and many animal issues. That is positive and progressive; 'AR activist' should give credit where credit is due, something which he/she has failed entirely to do." Yes that's great, but it''s only 'commitments' ('promises'), which coming from this government are not worth the paper they're written on! Don't be surprised when in a few months those 'promises' are postponed due to the woresning financial situation! As regards no third level fees, that's a joke! Access to third level education is far from free! There's a Registration Fee of €1,500, and expect that to be substantially increased in December's budget! Doubled perhaps? There was no 'promise' to abolish that in the "Revised Programme for Government!"

On a directly related subject you'se might be interested to read http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94406 and see the anger coming from people there too as well.

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Mon Oct 12, 2009 05:14

Sorry 'Ed' I wasn't implying you're a hypocrite! What I'm sayig is that I'm really maddened by the hypocrisy of regimes such as Bosnia Herzigovina and Israel who'll be pass very good and laudable animal rights legislation, yet they have terrible human rights records. Speaking of Israel, the Isreali Occupation Force (IOF) regularly shoot at Palestinian animals and livestock. That too is heinous animal cruelty. Again sorry 'Ed' if you thought I was saying you're a hypocrite. You actually make sense in what you say and I agree with you.

by Animal Rights Activist - Animal Rights Organisation Mon Oct 12, 2009 05:22

Final thing for now, I think this article should be merged into http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94401, as it's basically the same topic, and it would contribute to the already lively debate going on there! Just my view.

by ALiberation Mon Oct 12, 2009 06:45 ALiberationnow at gmail dot com 086 3203643

The program for government is not legislation. This is not expressed in the other threads.
This is not a done deal and by combining the threads this will be lost and the focus will be lost somewhere after comment 13 or 14.

by myxomatosis vaccine Mon Oct 12, 2009 08:53

I admit that once I got passed the screaming capital letters of this article and absorbed its news - I wondered about the inclusion of such a specific time span. Bernie tells us this is the best day for animal rights campaigning in 20 years.
* What occured 20 years ago?
*Indeed what are the milestones on the track of Irish legislation and animal welfare?

Without a brief outline of the development of the law I can see no reason to shout that this bunch of proposals none of which appear to be immediately effective or committed (Fur farms to be phased out in this dail's lifetime or the next?) - TB vaccine for badgers onstream exactly when? legislation on the cards????? on the cards ???

Economic recovery is also on the cards is it not? Such a pity those cards come in such loaded decks.

But to stick with history, surely the fate of the badgers will rely on a revisit of the the Diseases of Animals Acts, 1966 which was last ammended in 2000? Was that a milestone of the past?

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that much if not most of Irish legislation on animal welfare was either inherited from British law or came as part of European integration. We don't bait or bears or dogs same as we don't send our kids cleaning chimneys and we have water fonts about the place much as tag the ears of our cows and adhere to minimum storage and transport conditions.

OF course there was the great musk rat act of 1933, which allowed the Irish Free State to cull a plague of the giant rodents from the Limerick area. http://www.acts.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=125532974...28%28$query4%29%3C%3Dactyear%3C%3D%28$query5%29%29%20AND%20%28%28$query6%29%29%3Aactno%20AND%20%28%28$query7%29%29%3Asectionnumber%20AND%20%28%28$query1%29%29%3Alongtitle%20AND%20%28%28$query2%29%29%3Ashorttitle%20AND%20%28%28$query3%29%29%3Asidehead%20AND%20%28%28$query%29%29%29&query1=animal&docid=1225&docdb=s0052_english&dbname=s0052_english&sorting=none&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1 Indeed one specimen was stuffed and sent ot the natural history museum which if the stairs hadn't collapsed you might have visited.

Meanwhile, those issues for which the ALF umbrella people are most well known ;-
circuses, hares, greyhounds & dairy production are not even mentioned.

Despite greyhounds at least being tippy toppy in the submission put by the ISPCA to Dail committees.

BUT YOU LIKE GORMLEY AND THAT'S WHAT MATTERS.

by Catlady Wed Oct 14, 2009 02:22

Laughing out loud at the tantrums being thrown here. Honestly I find them hilarious!

The issues themselves are far from hilarious however and I can't begin to respond to each opinion individually. I will just say that I am DELIGHTED that, for once, the torturing and maiming and abuse of innocent non-human animals is being taken seriously in this country. The more rants about it, the better. It raises consciousness, raises awareness and increases education on the issues. I applaud the Greens on this one (And I'm not a member - yet). They have BALLS!!!!! And they have them where it matters - in stopping horrific deaths in the name of sheer profit, rather than pandering to economics. Sure we are fucked financially with or without NAMA to be fair. But the Greens used the unpleasant situation we find ourselves in to bring about as much positive change as they could, in this instance.

It speaks to me regarding their morals and I am joining the party asap. Of course, they are complete nit-wits in a million ways, but at least they represent those of us who detest pointless exploitation! They did a great job on animal welfare and politically, the exercised their influence to bring about positive change, at the first moment they could. Fair play!

And yes, next step is to make Ireland fur-free! Ban selling the stuff!

by Neptune Wed Oct 14, 2009 03:19

It would make sense to ban the sale of fur- more sense than putting farmers out of work so someone else can take over in some other corner of the EU.

If the sale of fur is banned however, I will be very surprised.

by Catlady Thu Oct 15, 2009 18:04

...be amazed if the sale of all fur is banned here anytime soon. This is a huge step in the right direction however, and the campaign to get individual shops and chainstores to stop selling fur continues with much success thanks to the dedication of activists.

by Animal Rights Advocate Fri Oct 16, 2009 23:27 molly_grealish at hotmail dot com Knocknacarra Galway 086 - 3985761

To Jimmiebond, who says: Only those with direct control over the life of an animal can decide on the animals so called rights. Does the same also apply to children?? Are they too totally devoid of rights unless adults in their charge deign to grant them same? Of course rights are a totally human construct, but there are large swathes of human animals who are as devoid of moral agency as non-human animals, but we nevertheless grant them basic rights. If you are going to enter a discussion on rights Jimmiebond, then at least try your best to be even a little bit logical.......