Killing British Security Forces

by Jim Thu Mar 26, 2009 18:19

The 1916 rebellion was justified because Home Rule or autonomy or any form of Irish independence had been denied to the Irish people though they had overwhelmingly endorsed Irish nationalist parties prior to it.

The 1919-1921 war of independence was justified because the majority of TD's elected to the first Dail were in favour of Irish independence and had the backing of the majority of the people.

The actions of the IRA during 1922-1923 were not justified because a national referendum had endorsed the Anglo-Irish Treaty that established the Irish Free State by a majority of the people of the 26-counties of that state.

The actions of the IRA from 1969-1997 were not justified because the alternative of peaceful democratic politics existed and the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wished to remain UK citizens even though significant minority of the Catholic nationalists supported an armed campaign of terrorism against the British and the Northern Irish Protestant loyalist population.

The actions of the Real IRA have absolutely unjustifiable - there is absolutely no support among the nationalist community in Northern Ireland and any significant support in the Republic of Ireland for a return to a campaign of violence to overthrow British rule.

Dissident republicans possess absolutely no democratic mandate whatsoever - they do not have an elected representatives at national or local level.

At most they number less than a thousand disaffected malcontents and their hangers on.

The arrogance and futility of such a micro-group dictating to the overwhelming majority of the people of this island is uttterly contemptible.

For your own sake and the sakes of all people on this island stop now.

by The Creature. Thu Mar 26, 2009 20:24

The Romans no longer attack Britain.
The Vikings no longer attack Ireland.
Cromwell no longer cuts off the head of the English king.
Or tells the Irish to go to paradise (= Connacht.)
Napoleon no longer attacks Europe.
Germany no longer attacks Europe.
The Marxists in China are Capitalists.
Vietnam is Capitalist.

But......

The Real IRA kill a couple of ordinary blokes taking a Pizza delivery and invoke the name of Wolfe Tone and Irish Freedom in doing so.

Some people really do live in the past.

(Or are a bit retarded.)

by paul o toole - Good Friday Surrender Agreement Fri Mar 27, 2009 09:11

I dont agree with killing. Justified killing is a misnomar, and killing a couple of police officers at this stage is a bit futile. There is an oppertunity for real debate to take place but unfortunately it never will happen.
The North will continnue to be trouble and there will always be trouble, because just as most people have 'moved on', some will not. And for good reason some will not move on.
I for one would not kill to gain a political objective unless i was threatned, but I can see a problem with the venneer the Good Friday Peace Agreement has whitewashed over.

Just like any criminal activity it will continnue to fester unless the underlying reasons which causes of the motivation of the activity to continnue is addressed. It hasnt been. You can say that I'm living in the past if you like but like ive said before here on Indymedia and got ridiculed for it-if you dont deal with the problem it will occur again and again-and here we are again.

Signing the Good Friday Agreement solved nothing other than expose Bertie Aherne as a political coward. He basically rubberstamped British aggression towards Ireland during its horrible history, and by default he and his party justified the continnuation of that type of behaviour on behalf of the British. By signing this agreement he surrendered the North to the British.
Just like paedophiles, tax dodgers, fraudsters, warcriminals etc...punishment is a necessary part of the solution or else it wlll continnue. A simple handshake without any debate, sign a document and off we go is not a solution to the underlying political problems in the North.
There has to be redress, appropriation, and a comitment to a lasting peace , which cannot be attained by this venneer under the pretense that real progress has been made. Im not saying for one minute that there has not been progress or that what has been achieved thus far is not real, or worth it. Im saying that the basis for this agreement is built on perverse un-logic, and as a result is doomed to continnue to show its failings in random killing in the North and elsewhere.
I remember when the agreement was signed and like everyone who posesses a consience, i rejoiced. But later recanted a little.
There is still hope for this agreement to succeed to the fullest extent that it should, but unfortunately feathers would have to be ruffled and I dont think any politician in Ireland has the guts.
Paul.

by Blamer. Fri Mar 27, 2009 09:47

"By signing this agreement he surrendered the North to the British"

An all Ireland referendum endorsed that agreement.
The people of Ireland spoke.
Not Bertie Ahern.

Most people are sick and tired of morons like the people who murdered the two soldiers.

If the Provo's campaign of terrorism left us any legacy it is this:
Ireland is now permanently divided.

The Provo's campaign of terror ultimately resulted in the North being handed over permanently to the Brits.
With them cosying up to the Paisleyites.

Don't blame Bertie Ahern.

by Mike Novack Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:10

Please don't misunderstand this as being in any way, shape, or form intended to support RIRA or CIRA or anybody else wanting to carry on your sectarian/ethnic stuggle by violent means.

But "Creature", some rather unfortunate examples there. Is this some inability to comprehend longer periods of history than a lifetime? That sometimes it's the SAME cultures in a protacted struggle, often just because one hasn't managed to sufficiently crush the other.

The Romans no longer attack Britain.
Not in the last 60 years. But allied to their old enemies the Germans they did have a go not all THAT long ago.

The Vikings no longer attack Ireland.
Well they settled lots of it so by the end it was as much Viking vs Viking as Viking vs Irish. And how about the "settlers" from Scotland who were brought to Northern Ireland. Well some would be decendents of Irish (who had conquered parts of Scotland) and others Vikings who conquered and settled parts of Scotland. Picts, what Picts?

We'll ignore the human person ones. Humans simply do not live long enough to BE history (they are actors IN history). The fact that you consider in comparison time frames as short as human lives means you don't really understand history of peoples/cultures

Germany no longer attacks Europe.
Sorry, but this is the one that really got me going. You want to consider the Irish radicals odd for having history stretching back hundreds of years and then contrast with a statement like THIS one. Is that a TRUE statement "Creature" -- over the same time frame? By which I mean how many times during the same time frame would your answer have had to alternate between true and false. During the same period as Irish have been fighting to regain independence Germany has had many "goes" and many periods when "no longer attacking Europe" (of which Germany is a part).

The Marxists in China are Capitalists.
Vietnam is Capitalist.
A fleeting experiment? Hey, at the start of my lifetime both were "capitalist" (probably a misnomer)

The Real IRA kill a couple of ordinary blokes taking a Pizza delivery and invoke the name of Wolfe Tone and Irish Freedom in doing so.

Some people really do live in the past.

Like I said, not intended as support for any particular actions. But I do not think of that as a particularly long time frame. I imagine the Maya of Chiapas don't either. Or the tribes up here "fighting" to retain bits of sovereignty and in cases recover bits of territory. And you really can't have a clue about Israel-Palestine unless you are able to conceive of efforts that make ones of a few hundred years seem like "just yesterday".

by paul o toole Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:33

I wouldn't normally respond to anyone annonymously hiding behind some fictitous inane name like blamer but to clear up a little misunderstanding I will.
The 'people of Ireland' as you call them have been disengaged in Northern Politics as far back as partition. Free Staters were known as.
Someone has to sign an agreement, it was bertie, and in my view has done an imesurable injustice to this country.
Like Tony Blair who prided himself on taking 'hard decisions' on invading Soverign Iraq, im sure you think Bertie took hard decisions also and now endorsed by the Irish Government has condoned British injustice in the North.

People kept ignorant are easily misled, and the Good Friday agreement is nothing more than an endorsement of British Policy towards Ireland. And given Bertie Ahernes policy of support for Invasions of soverign nations it is not surprising that he would bow before Tony and Bush and as a man I think Bertie Aherne has a lot to answer for to the 'people of Ireland' for selling out to the British, for destroying the social fabric of this nation, for bringing the name of Irish politics lower than the gutter.
The old enemy of the capitalists was communism. The new enemy is socialism. And if Bertie calls himself a socialist why would he run in the opposite direction of socialism and sell this agreement to the Irish people thus supporting, condoning and endorsing Birtish Imperialistic notions.
Like i said...bertie did basically surrender the North to the British-you dont have to agree-its not a referendum. And the 'peace dividend' is investment....from who??. Raytheon.
The irony is lost on you I'm sure but raytheon is a weapons manufacturer. Now the folks in Northern Ireland can all 'work in peace' making bombs to kill and maim loads of other kids in other parts of the world that the British (and now the Irish) choose to invade. There have already been bomb fragments taken from dead leboneese kids with 'Ratheon, Derry,' written on them.
So well done to Bertie, and to Tony Blair the new Middle East envoy after he brought 'peace' there also......

by lulu Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:45

Weren't those dead Brit soldiers & the policeman working-class, probably poorly educated, & simply tools of a Government that they thought had been elected to represent them & 'democracy' as advertised in the mass media? God help their bereaved families. The killings achieve nothing besides setting us all back by years.

by Des Fri Mar 27, 2009 13:32

I'm sure when loyalist paramilitary thugs murdered innocent Catholics or if they do start again as a consequence of the actions of dissident Republicans, they will use much the same excuses - freedom, people under threat, way of life under threat, being oppressed by Republican terrorists, not being left with any other option to defend themselves, and the usual plethora of pure bull that lowlifes use in order to try and justify murder and violence.

by soundmigration - per cap Fri Mar 27, 2009 14:09

Is guff like this tolerated, this is not a serious post but clearly bonkers in its logical loop the loops and self justifying ignorance

"The killings are a reflection of the deep divisions within the working class and its failure to defend its class interests at a time when the onslaught against the Irish working class is unprecedented in its ferocity."

This is cloud cukoo land stuff. Personally i think posts like are this a significant drawback to indymedia as a whole. Am i the only one noticing a significant rise in the number of republican quacks posting here. it was right up there with the RSF releaseing a statement on british imperialism and the X factor in one go...i kid you not!!!

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/89917

"The killings are a reflection of a bunch of macho athouritarians, hiding behind a project of Eire Nua or something equally daft, with thought out political positions you could write on the back of a match box. They are also the result of tiny armed groups trying to recruit and reimagine themselves as politically relevant through murder. Sure Slab Murphy wouldnt know Groucho Marx from Karl Marx never mind his Gramsci from his Foucault. The stauncest militants in the dissidents and provos like to see themselves as Men of Action. The reality is they scorned critical thinking, happier to repeat historical mantra's than educate themselves about the changing nature of power" - quoted from a disaffected republican turned anarchist

Now im not sure many would agree with this very short 'analysis' but it contains more truth than the original post.

by Blamer. Fri Mar 27, 2009 15:37

Paul O'Toole.

If the Provos had NOT launched their terror campaign against the Irish and British people the Irish Constitution would still lay claim to the 6 counties.

If Republicans want to see who finally divided Ireland forever....look in the mirror.
.

by union jack Fri Mar 27, 2009 15:40

I thik i kno who blamer is...he s kevin meyers in his alter ego.

Now theres a man to argue that the british were nothing if they were not a benevolent kind hearted, albeit misunderstood, do gooders- only the pooor ol sots they were bringing british justice to were to ignorant to realise.

by lulu Fri Mar 27, 2009 23:31

The Provos might have done better by shaming the Brits, as Gandhi did, & appealing to their better nature, because some of them do have one, but the campaign of violence just brought more brutality from Britain, & little sympathy from the Republic.

by lulu Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:11

So far in the history of these Isles, the land has won, absorbing waves of invaders & their languages, & making them British (meaning both 'Celtic', & 'mongrel of the Isles') & Irish. We need to be wary of anything that threatens our lands & people, & regards them simply as tools for political power or financial gain. Whatever flag is flying, people need peace, housing, good education, & decent healthcare.

by Jean Malkovon Sat Mar 28, 2009 14:07

I have a question and please forgive me if it may seem stupid but as an outsider (from France) I am sometimes very baffled by Irish politics. If the dissident Republicans are correct in their claim that they hold the support of a great deal of the Irish population, why aren't they trying to exploit that level of support politically by engaging in main-stream Irish politics? Surely this would make more sense and would help to achieve their manifestos and goals much more rapidly than engaging in a campagin of violence.

by Wise Man Sat Mar 28, 2009 14:50

Nobody supports them Jean.
They are die-hard extremists living in the past.

by Curious Sun Mar 29, 2009 08:49

The murdered British troops:

a) Why were they in Norn Iron??

b) They were about to be deployed to Afghanistan, where their Job is to fight and kill people.

At least as guilty if not more so as the dudes that killed them.

by ultra nationalist watch Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:57

Curious the forces in Afghanistan operate under a UN mandate, they also abide by the Geneva convention, Irish troops are also there albeit in a small number, how can that be the same as people with no mandate shooting unarmed soldiers dead and pizza men in cold blood.

by Eastender Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:15

I come from the East End of London.

We always found it curious that the IRA thought that we Brits were attacking them when they were placing the bombs in London.

Londoners have no interest in Irish affairs.

Especially us working class East Enders.

(Eastenders is a popular soap about us in Ireland too I believe.)

The British Empire is,thankfully, a long dead memory.

The two tribes in Norn Ire are a legasy of that evil empire.

by Blamer Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:33

Because I have always had a contempt for the Provos I actually understand the "Dissident" point of view.

When the Provos launched their "Long War" I always knew that it would result in utter defeat.

The Provos were resoundly beaten..

They just pretend to have "won".

by Jim Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:15

Thanks for clearing that up Curious.
And now please explain why the pizza delivery men had to be shot?

by stumped Mon Mar 30, 2009 20:36

Colleatteral damage they call it, the pizzaboys.

by Kevin Mon Mar 30, 2009 21:18

"Colleatteral damage they call it, the pizzaboys."
Aye. And other people call it not giving a f**k who gets hurt, as long as you can be the big man to all your mates, especially the mentally challenged ones.

by MacNamara. Mon Mar 30, 2009 21:49

People whose minds are captured by the Moonies are often rescued by their loving relatives.

"Tough Love" they call it.

The enslaved minds may take some convincing.

I think some of those dissidents need to be told that Ireland is finally united.

Against them.

by Dissident. Mon Mar 30, 2009 21:58

"And now please explain why the pizza delivery men had to be shot?"
If you feed the invading British Army you know the consequences.

Dead simple.

by Jim Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:46

"If you feed the invading British Army you know the consequences.
Dead simple."

And next to die are the milkmen, the breadmen, the people who work for the water service, the people who work for Northern Ireland Electricity. The postmen. The people who actually work in the pizza places who make the pizzas. People in chippys. People in cafes. The checkout girls at Tescos. The guys that stack the shelves at Tescos. Oh, and the guy who drives the Tescos delivery van. All people who have helped provide services to the British Army. All enemies of Ireland.

With this kind of logic, its easy to see who the real enemies of the people are.

by publik hair Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:09

an eye for an eye and then there would surely be no more war when were all blind...
Some take part in war as soldiers
some as manufacturers of weapons
some as political supporters
some as economic conscripts
some as victims
some as willing psychopaths
some as a job
some as a belief in an ideoligy
some for profit
some as silent objectors
some as idiotic patriots
some believing it is freedom

War is the blade on the sharp edge of capitalism, we all support it one way or another. The 'troubles' in the North were nothing more than a training ground prepairing for the British expansionism currently in opperation throught the M-E. Blair and Bush started a 40 year war, and the utter insignificance of opposing sides in Northern politics were drawn together or faced being crushed when faced with the global reality of the US and UK's 'Globalised benevolent hagemony'. Wake up and smell the napalm.

by Daithi Wed Apr 01, 2009 18:09

"And next to die are the milkmen, the breadmen, the people who work for the water service, the people who work for Northern Ireland Electricity. The postmen. The people who actually work in the pizza places who make the pizzas. People in chippys. People in cafes. The checkout girls at Tescos. The guys that stack the shelves at Tescos. Oh, and the guy who drives the Tescos delivery van. All people who have helped provide services to the British Army. All enemies of Ireland.

With this kind of logic, its easy to see who the real enemies of the people are."

The brit soldiers you are so concerned about are dab hands at murdering the milkmen, the breadmen, the people who work for the water service, the people who work for Iraq, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan Electricity. The postmen. The people who actually work in the falafel places who make the falafels. People in bazaars. People in cafes. The checkout girls at market. The guys that stack the shelves at markets. Oh, and the guy who drives the market delivery van. All people who have helped provide services to the Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia. All enemies of Britain, the only difference being they can do it from computer screens a hundred miles away while enjoying the blessing of the state.

"Real enemies of the people" Stalin lover are you?

by Jim Wed Apr 01, 2009 22:46

Daithi

"The brit soldiers you are so concerned about are dab hands at murdering the milkmen,"
Please point out in my comment where I express any support whatsoever for the British establishment, especially the Military? The gist of my comment was at the callous and thoughtless poster who thought it was acceptble to gun down innocent pizza-men trying to earn a living. Do you think this was acceptable?

"Stalin lover are you?"
Socialist, not Stalinist. I oppose any government or organisation which tries to force their ideals on the public, by using force if necessary and ignoring silly little things like democracy and the will of the people. This includes the home-grown thugs who use terror to impose their will on the people.