Deployment of navy a gross over-reaction by Government

by Joe Byrne Mon Sep 08, 2008 16:33

Congratulations to Keith and a double congrats for getting your letter in to the mainstream media. The MSM is the air campaign, whether that is appreciated or not. I have had 95 per cent of my letters to the Irish Times published over the past 25 years. The content comprised various issues and I usually managed to insert something novel or different into the angle I was coming from.

Alas not on this issue. The free exchange of views has it's limitations even in "the paper of record". The Times may have given some decent coverage before to the counter arguments to shell, but I heard a journalist on radio a few months ago tell Marian Finucane to "never underestimate the influence of the letters page of the Irish Times" I wrote several pieces to "Madam" on this issue, not a peep.

Some novel methods need to be applied to attract the attention of the population as to what is going on, some are in train and hopefully we will have some success.

Solidarity to all. J B

by Chris A.Bond - Labour Party/Unite Union Sat Sep 06, 2008 15:48

To Keith Martin on this brave and principled stance, if more public representatives shared Keiths stance we wouldn't have Shell plundering our Natural resources nor would our communities be under siege by the Gardai and Navy. Thats the most important thing. The Campaign needs to win over as many people to the cause as possible, and not engender division through pettiness, knitpicking and posturing.

by Ponchovilla Sat Sep 06, 2008 04:34

"I didn't direct any abuse at Cllr Keith Martin on this thread or anywhere else - I asked him to clarify an issue and he replied . Are you that sensitive regarding the Labour Party that you describe a request for clarification put to one of its elected reps as "abuse" ?"

I didn't suggest you were the one lashing the abuse at Keith in the first place, it was another poster. Jaysus I think you need to re-read the whole thread. It looks to me like a badly aimed missive.

Ciaran

by Ponchovilla Sat Sep 06, 2008 03:13

Ok Sharon. You definetely havent read my post carefuully in its entirety.
And if you have you definetely havent thought about it carefully
I hate been misrepresented

by Sharon . - Individual. Fri Sep 05, 2008 19:44

Hi again , Ponchovilla !

"Sorry Sharon, but are you genuinely confused over what I said or are you deliberately trying to misrepresent me.
In my post I never condemned outsiders for supporting the campaign. Could you please re read my post and while your at it re-read your own. "
Yes , I have done that - and here's what I found : in your previous post you referred to "numbscull outsiders who arent even from the local area and who don't to live side by side with people who are effected by the issue in one way or the other."
That , to me , is 'condemnation of outsiders who support the campaign' .

"Also I was speaking of the abuse directed at Keith already on this thread and not abuse directed at me as there was no abuse directed at me. I thought that was obvious."
I didn't direct any abuse at Cllr Keith Martin on this thread or anywhere else - I asked him to clarify an issue and he replied . Are you that sensitive regarding the Labour Party that you describe a request for clarification put to one of its elected reps as "abuse" ?

"Also I fully support the Tara protesters. Why wouldn't I? "
Oh I dunno . Perhaps because you're a ' numbskull outsider who isn't even from the local area and who doesn't live side by side with people who are effected by the issue' ?

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Ponchovilla Fri Sep 05, 2008 15:31

"Being the Westport man you are , I trust you will not voice support for the Tara protestors as you "don't live side-by-side with people who are affected by the issue".
Otherwise someone on Indymedia could point out your 'hypocrisy' ."

Sorry Sharon, but are you genuinely confused over what I said or are you deliberately trying to misrepresent me.
In my post I never condemned outsiders for supporting the campaign. Could you please re read my post and while your at it re-read your own.

Also I was speaking of the abuse directed at Keith already on this thread and not abuse directed at me as there was no abuse directed at me. I thought that was obvious.

Also I fully support the Tara protesters. Why wouldn't I?

Good Luck
Ciaran

by Sharon. - Individual. Wed Sep 03, 2008 22:26

Hi again , Keith !
Thanks for clearing that up - from your 'I'm a moderate supporter' post I presumed you were describing yourself as a 'luke warm/sometime'-supporter . That is apparently not the case.

Hi Ponchovilla !
"It has to be acknowledged that there is serious division in Mayo over this issue. I know this beacuse I have spoken to my friends and relatives down there and have recieved mixed views about the campaign. While I very much appreciate the efforts and contributions to the campaign from people outside the immediate locality, I will not accept slander or abuse for not being militant enough from numbscull outsiders who arent even from the local area and who don't to live side by side with people who are effected by the issue in one way or the other."

It is common knowledge , I believe , that there is division over this issue in the area , yes , as the 'powers-that-be' knew there would . However , as a mere "numbskull outsider" , that does not make the issue any less important as far I'm concerned . You are right not to accept "slander or abuse" over your support for the protestors but , in this case , you are too quick to see "slander and abuse" where none existed.
Being the Westport man you are , I trust you will not voice support for the Tara protestors as you "don't live side-by-side with people who are affected by the issue".
Otherwise someone on Indymedia could point out your 'hypocrisy' .

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Maura Harrington - S2S; Davitt League Wed Sep 03, 2008 18:04

Labour Youth proposed a motion to the Labour Conference which, regardless of the position of the councillor from Westport, was kicked into touch by Liz McManus through the usual tactic of giving it to a Committee to consider.

To date this Committee has, to my knowledge, issued no findings.

There is nothing to be gained by negative comment but neither will anything be gained by comment either driven or determined by the perceived dictat of MSM (mainstream media).

The only criterion which matters to $hell is their bottom line. If that isn't understood by anybody attempting to influence $hell, then you will be chewed up and spat out.

It is that mindset of servility that has landed the people of nth Mayo, together with their national and international supporters in the current ludicrous situation of Interpol spin, subversion of the Navy and whatever comes next.

Fianna Fail are the adepts at speaking out of both sides of their mouths; Labour and Greens are not at the races.

If Labour as a viable political party have the will to be effective, one suggestion is that Liz McManus produce the findings of the Committee referred to.

Similarly, the Greens could declare their two eunuchs, Ryan and Gormley, to be persona non grata.

If not, then leave it to those who are willing ...

by Cllr Keith Martin - Labour Party Wed Sep 03, 2008 16:08

I am a "moderate" supporter in that I support moderate and reasonable but passionate protest in Rossport.

When I mention "attacks" I am refering to other postings on this and other forums not necessarily the ones on this post (but they are a taster of what I usually get!)

I agree there is a slur campaign against the protesters with the mention of Interpol to justify the warships.

I fully support the Rossport Five in their actions to protect their homes and families and I condemn the econonmic treason that say Shell get its hands on "our" gas and I condemn the use of warships to "police" the protests.

by ponchovilla Wed Sep 03, 2008 15:40

I would just like to say fair play to Keith for making a public stand over this issue, especially at a time when no offical Labour party policy exists on the Rossport issue. I myself am from Westport, I myself am a member of Shell to Sea, but I'm sick to the teeth of the bullying which goes on, on these forums.

It has to be acknowledged that there is serious division in Mayo over this issue. I know this beacuse I have spoken to my friends and relatives down there and have recieved mixed views about the campaign. While I very much appreciate the efforts and contributions to the campaign from people outside the immediate locality, I will not accept slander or abuse for not being militant enough from numbscull outsiders who arent even from the local area and who don't to live side by side with people who are effected by the issue in one way or the other.

Slan

by Fred Johnston Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:06

At least as shocking, and as shaming, as Shell's use of the Irish government to bring in navy gunboats, is the 'spin' story appearing in some papers that Interpol or Europol were contacted regarding demonstrators coming in to join the regular protestors. It certainly smells of spin; an attempt to have people believe that an international no-good conspiracy is afoot. Nice to know the source of the tale. Clearly Shell are pulling out all the stops here, so one can be forgiven for imagining there is even worse to come . . . .

by simple bearla lobbyist Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:44

& hoping for wider political statements on the unprecendented use of the Irish Naval service in this way.....

Something on the Nigerian navy as used by Shell to protect the Niger Delta oil fields from well armed Nigerian locals who use rigid-hulled inflatable boats to regularly bring attention to themselves and stop production and the Mayo - Ireland thing. This June saw the latest largescale deployment of what was described in African media as 2 frigates. This would be very impressive were it not for the fact that Nigeria unlike Ireland has only one frigate which is generally considered to be not such a young vessel so there's no point getting jealous about it & asking the counsellor to round up municipal representatives and public servants across the island to ensure we have a frigate just like the Nigerians have. Boasting aside - our 80.8 metre flagship not only has a helicopter pad but a working helicopter too.

There are of course many ways to make up for not being in technical possession or even a regular borrower of either your first frigate or your second one. After all size isn't everything and the extra 40 metres in length and 4 metres in the beam needed to bring the Irish flagship up to the Nigerian size might not fit comfortably into many of Eire's coastal geographic features.

The Nigerians obviously hurt to the cuticle by foreign taunts about their navy which has a helicopter pad on its flagship but no working helicopter to go with it - signed a deal with Israeli arms contractor Aerostar in 2006 to develop the concept of "un-manned coastal defence systems" or drones. A drone for those not in the military hardware know - is a bit like a small radio controlled helicopter with a webcam and gun attached. Ireland of course has also put in an order for one of those drone yokes. But it will be going to the army who will of course have to ask local Gardaí for permission to bring it down the park and shoot things up. Thanks to the generous support of both Shell and the USA, Nigeria was able to order 3 complete indepedent systems which canny analysts like myself would suggest allowing the Nigerian army, navy and air-force the plausible parity of drone deployment and use in the events of a civil war or coup d'etat situation which brought armed services into internal dispute. This is often the way of things. even when you're not talking about the remotest possibilities of coups or civil wars : For Envy has ever worn a uniform. I assure you of the seven vices, envy is the one you through the ranks and give medals to. Is that helping you with the "PR" thing Keith mentions?

Oh yep - the Nigerian navy kills people (for Shell) whereas the Irish Naval Service has never killed anyone ever. Correct me if I'm wrong. Thrash it out amongst yourselves.

by Margaret Silverman Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:27

Fair play to ye Cllr Martin - the fact is that Shell to Sea have long felt abandoned by most 'respectable' politicians & reviled by the big media. Your support is welcome, all real support is welcome; please come to Glengad & meet the people, have a cuppa tae & a scone.

by Sharon. - Individual . Wed Sep 03, 2008 08:55

Hi Keith !

I'm sure your input is appreciated by most , but I'm a bit puzzled as to why , if you do see it as a "just cause" , as you say , you describe yourself as only a "moderate" supporter of that cause ?

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Thumbs Up. Wed Sep 03, 2008 05:32

Well said Keith...but maybe your first sentence is a bit OTT in response to a post on an indymedia thread?, but thumbs up to the rest nonetheless. Keep on keeping us posted with goings on in Westport as well.

by Cllr Keith Martin - Labour Wed Sep 03, 2008 01:38

As long as you keep attacking even moderate supporters like me you will always lose the PR battle.

I have had letters condeming the deployment of the navy published in the Times and the Independent today.

I have always supported the nationalisation of the corrib field and supported the Rossport Five and at Labour Party Conference I supported Labour Youth's motions to re-negociate the deal.

I have no mandate from the people of Westport in relation to the Rossport situation but nevertheless I have always lent my public support, be it letter writing, taking up signatures for the Rossport Five, issueing Press Releases etc etc to do my bit.

If every other councillor in the country did the same maybe things would be different in Rossport. Instead I am attacked for not doing enough by anonymous posters who only do harm to the just cause up there.

I don't feed the trolls usually but this is my only statement that I will post defending myself over the Rossport issue.

Good day to you all!

K

by Fred Johnston Tue Sep 02, 2008 02:22

Don't let's get bogged in internal argument here. Let's concentrate on deploring the fact that Shell's ability to call up, through our government, a Navy warship is a very sinister development indeed.

by risso Tue Sep 02, 2008 01:07

I amsick to the teeth with the ignorant bashing of anyone whom comments on the Corrib Gas situation who does not toe the "official" party line of "if you are not with us, you are agin us."
For the last 5 years I have been saddened to see a good cause in a stunningly beautiful part of the country being bastardised by ignorant blow ins whom did not know where Erris was 5 yrs ago.
The Coucillor in question was trying to help with publicising the disgracelful deployment of the Orla, but once again some idiot comes along and slags him off for trying to help. Its no wonder the cause is fucked and it is now a "fait accompli" that Shell will prevail in the end.
Sometimes I think that these idiots were planted by Shell to undermine the S2S campaign because thats exactly what they have succeeded in doing.

by Margaret Silverman Mon Sep 01, 2008 19:08

Work ahead, Cllr Martin, & while ye're at it, get SHell to refine the dirty raw gas at sea & re-negotiate the corrupt giveaway deal, then we'll vote for ye maybe.

by Sevinch Karaca - WSM-Personal Capacity Sat Aug 30, 2008 22:44

You intend to raise it with the government? Are you joking us? I am not suprised the slightest that Shell is able to get the Irish Navy serve for them against whoever attempts to stop this project . Your party's spinless inaction in preventing this in the first place is what you should be raising with Labor. You didn't think it would happen here that ruthless corporations like Shell can hire the entire security forces of a country to go ahaed with yet another illlegal profit project. They hired this state for this project to use all its resources, services and powers. Do a bit of reading councillor, start with the violence against people in Niger Delta, Kurds who were poisoned by Shell with oil rafinery waste in mid 1990s in Diyarbakir, Turkey are to count a few. It is simply a case of our turn has come.
Your headline grabbing exercise is not likely get applauds neither from the activists nor from the community who endure harrasment, intimadition and violance on daily basis. We were pushed, pulled, kicked and verbally abused by Garda this morning while you were typing away your self-righteous condemnation. Your condemnation delivers nothing to prevent Shell to invade public land, pollute the environment and bully any opposition to it to this extend.

by Tom Tom Sat Aug 30, 2008 21:29

Our Government's failure to ratify the United Nations Aarhus Convention Agreement, which it signed in 1998, needs to be raised in the very worst of a way at this stage.

Even though it has not ratified it, our Government is still obliged -- having SIGNED this international agreement, which is possibly the most environmentally-friendly and socially benign agreement in human history -- to abide by it.

Instead, our Government has been consistently ignoring and undermining it: and getting away with it.

"It (The Aarhus Convention Agreement) links environmental rights and human rights."

"It links government accountability and environmental protection."

"The subject of the Aarhus Convention goes to the heart of the relationship between people and governments."

The full text of the UNECE Convention on Access to Information, Public Participation in Decision-making, and Access to Justice in Environmental Matters (i.e. The Aarhus Convention Agreement) can be found via the following United Nations page address: http://www.unece.org/env/pp/treatytext.htm

As can be seen on the following United Nations list, the Republic of Ireland (listed simply as "Ireland") signed the agreement on June 25th 1998: http://www.unece.org/env/pp/ctreaty_files/ctreaty_2007_...7.htm

by observer Sat Aug 30, 2008 19:54

Shell and other oil companies in the Niger Delta called upon the Nigerian dictatorships to supply a special military force - the Joint Task Force - made up of feared military police, the army and several naval vessels which are currently trawling the delta areas, now like combat zones after years of not listening. Even the British and US Governments have denied that they intended to help with police and military supports in the Niger Delta even though requested it seems by the current President. How big it can get when the first calls for proper honest dialogue and consultation are over ridden.
Was Pat O Donnell, a prominent stake holder as is now shown, consulted and his agreement sought 8 years ago when the plan was drawn up - were all the other local citizens and the Irish owners - also stakeholders - honestly represented by their elected representaives who hurried to pass law after law to progress Shell ignoring their own people. Lisbon-time! Why were these agreements not cleared up years ago? And not on the swell of the ocean today! Unbelievable!