British Occupation is the Crime

by Jim Thu May 15, 2008 15:09

In 1998 81% of registered voters in Northern Ireland participated in the GFA referendum of whome 71.1 % voted in favour of the political settlement that established the present Northern Assembly and devolved government.
In the Republic of Ireland 56% of registered voters participated in the referendum to to decide articles 2 & 3 of the Irish constitutions and 95% voted in favour of abandoning the territorial claim to the North.

In the last Northern Ireland Assembly election in 2007 the results were as follows:

DUP 36 seats
SF 27 seats
UUP 18 seats
SDLP 16 seats
Alliance 7 seats
Independent 1 seat
Greens 1 seat
Progressive Unionist 1 seat

Republican Sinn Fein? 0 seats.

It is quite clear therefore that the majority of people in Northern Ireland vote for Unionist parties and prefer to remain in the UK.

The results of the 2007 general election in the Republic of Ireland were as follows:

FF 77 seats
FG 51 seats
Lab 20 seats
Greens 6 seats
Independents 5 seats
SF 4 seats
PD's 2 seats

Republican Sinn Fein? 0 seats.

It is clear that the overwhelming majority of Irish people support political parties who support the GFA and who recognise the right of the majority of the Unionist population to remain in the UK until such time as they wish otherwise.

The British Army is not a force of occupation.
It resides in Northern Ireland with the support of the majority of its citizens.

by Timothy Matthews Thu May 15, 2008 17:25

The world has moved on and left these idiots behind.

The IRA has disarmed and is effectively disbanded except for a a few die hards who still think they can overthrow British rule.

Every shade and breed of Irish republicanism from Enda Kenny to Gerry Adams, right and left, north and south accept that the armed struggle is over for good.

Ireland will never be unified by military force.

We live on the same island and the best way to achieve Irish unity is economic and political co-operation between North and South.

In the end the unionists and loyalists may never agree to a 32 county Republic.

That's democracy.

If we ever have a 32 county Republic it will mean that the tri-colour, the harp, the Soldier's song and the special treatment given to the Catholic Church will have to change.

It's as simple as that.

by Mr Man Thu May 15, 2008 17:57

Why does the tricolour have to go? I thought it stood for catholics(green) and protestants(orange) in peace (white)? Surely it would be a good flag for a unified Ireland.

“It should always be remembered that it is the occupation of Ireland by a foreign enemy which remains the greatest crime being perpetrated against the Irish people.”
Personally, I think Ryan Tubridys face is the greatest crime being perpetrated against the Irish People.

by Timothy Matthews Thu May 15, 2008 18:10

Because in the eyes of Unionists the Tricolour is the symbol of the IRA.
Unionists would have to give up the Union Jack and the sash because they are symbols of oppression in the eyes of Republicans.

To create a 32 county republic without alienating either side both tribes would have to find common symbols to create a common nationality.

Otherwise the whole idea is pie in the sky.

by Mike - Judean Popular Peoples Front Thu May 15, 2008 18:32

"I thought it stood for catholics(green) and protestants(orange) in peace (white)? "

What about the rest of us ?

by True Republican Thu May 15, 2008 21:43

The true and uncompromised IRA has not disarmed, actually. They remain at war with England.

Óglaigh na hÉireann Abú!
An Phoblacht Abú!

by Jim Fri May 16, 2008 11:29

The overwhelming majority of Irish people north and south do not support you.
You and only a few hundred die hards are clinging on.
What do you possibly hope do to achieve?
Do you plan to form the government of a united 32 county republic without the support of the Irish people who have voted time and time for political parties who recognise the principle of consent?
You are not a true republican, because a true republican would accept the democratic will of the people.

by Mr Man Fri May 16, 2008 17:24

Well said Jim. First we had the IRA , then we had the 'Official' IRA, then there was the 'Provisional' IRA, then the Continuity IRA, then the Real IRA now there's a 'true and uncompromised' IRA? TUIRA. Whats next? The UIRA? The unionist irish republican army.

At this stage with the amount of splinters the 'True and Uncomprimised IRA' is probably 5 auld fellas in a pub beating up protestants and going paintballing. Oh the horrors of war....

by Mike - Judean Popular Peoples Front Fri May 16, 2008 17:27

Would this be the same one that planted a firebomb in a TOY SHOP last weeked ?

by True Republican Fri May 16, 2008 17:46

The true and uncompromised IRA is the Continuity IRA, Mr. Man.

by Mr Man Fri May 16, 2008 17:57

Ok. you could have just said that.

Still, Jim's comment still stands.

by Big Mac Fri May 16, 2008 21:29

I think that the Unionist Irish Republican Army is the IRA which murdered Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney.

by Cael - Sinn Féin Poblachtach Fri May 16, 2008 22:57

The GFA had nothing to do with democracy. The people were not allowed to take part in the negotiations in any way - indeed the outcome of the process was dictated by the Brits and no party could sit at the table if they had not already accepted the Unionist Undemocratic Veto. All the Irish people were allowed to do was tick a box - they were not allowed to express their opinions in any way. They were told that voting No ment voting For war. As it happens the people were so excluded for this whole GFA charade that nearly half of them refused to tick any box at all. Considering all that a human being can say and express, asking them to sum up their whole opinions on Irish sovereignty in a pen mark in a little box is typical of the utter hatred the Irish and British ruling elite have for democracy. Any organistation that was part of the GFA con job is marked with this rejection of democracy.

by Mike - Judean Popular Peoples Front Sat May 17, 2008 09:14

Had people voted NO to the Belfast agreement (regardless of how low the turnout) RSF would have siezed on it as evidence that their deluded analysis was the will of the Irish people (TM)

The referendum (and subsequent elections) didnt go the way you wanted so you reject and choose to ignore it. Like you have with every other election held over the last 90 years.

In RSF logic In order for an election to be "democratic" It has to:
1) Have taken place 90 years ago.
2) With all the participants (Probably, at this stage Including the voters ) now dead.
3) Been limited to Men over 21 and Women over 30.
4) Comprimised by fraud and intimidation to the extent that half the seats were uncontested.
5) Produce a result that they approve of.

by comdt gen tom maguire Sat May 17, 2008 10:36

in 1969 the last surviving member of the 2nd all ireland dail, comdt gen tom maguire gave his alliegience to the provisional movement(he had authorisation from the republican government) in order to safeguard the movement from the marxist revisionist maybe as far in my opinion, communist way the officials were going...also the officials wanted to drop abstention and enter leinster house,,,,,,,,,,something which has consistantly destroyed the movement.

then in 1986 the same thing happened,adams and maguinness rigged the ard fheis with cumanns that only existed on paper in order to raise the number of delegates with voting rights...half of these so called delegates were probably working for mi5 looking at the provo movement in todays light????the role of this strategy was again to get the movement into leinster house..a ploy that the brits always want.

if they cant defeat the ira they always find ways to make the ira defeat itself.

again comdt gen tom maguire stepped in and gave his allegiance to the continuity army council...incidently these were the same people who formed the provo movement back in 1969..good republican stock.

adams approached maguire for recognition for the new leinster house so called republicans but was told where to go.

this is what is known as the continuity of the struggle

all you have to do is take a look at the provo movement since they left the republican movement 22years ago

1=there responsible for the destruction of art 2+3 of consituition
2=accepted the unionist veto.ie.if 99%of occupied 6 vote a united ireland the unionists dont have to recognise it..democracy?
3=changed the name ruc to psni...it dont matter what its called its still the british police force in ireland.cosmetic changes dont pull the wool over my eyes.
4=destroyed weapons got for the irish people to remove the foreign british presence from our shores
5=other countless acts of treachery i cant even say any longer as i'm getting angry talking about it.

by Mike - Judean Popular Peoples Front Sat May 17, 2008 11:45

"if they cant defeat the ira they always find ways to make the ira defeat itself."

I thought Sinn Fein were not the IRA ?????

"also the officials wanted to drop abstention and enter leinster house,,,,,,,,,,something which has consistantly destroyed the movement."

Participation in the democratic process "consistantly destroyes the movement" Does that not tell you something ?

"in 1969 the last surviving member of the 2nd all ireland dail, comdt gen tom maguire gave his alliegience to......"

Are you serious ?

"i cant even say any longer as i'm getting angry talking about it."

They really need to do something with your medication !

by Non-Republican Sat May 17, 2008 12:22

comdt gen tom maguire and those who 'think 'like him should try this:

Let us for the sake of argument accept that an old man in 1969 somehow could endorse SF on behalf of the Irish people, and then endorse RSF in 1986. Let us, only for the sake of argument, say that these people have a point about the Unionist veto etc. All accepted. Let us say for the sake of argument they have a right to ignore what most Irish people in the 21st century want and foist 'liberation' on them, based on a near century old mandate.

It does not follow that this 'right' has to be exercised. A more critical set of questions follow. Like these ones:

* Will planting firebombs in shops in Newry actually achieve your goals and force a united Ireland?
* Will attempting to kill Cathoilics who join the PSNI, by planting bombs under their cars, achieve anything? How???
* Will the Irish people en masse suddenly decide that a military struggle to achieve a united Ireland is worth it, and support you?
* If they don't, can a tiny, tiny minority of people acftually genuinely overcome the resistance of a million Protestants in the north, and the hostility or apathy of the rest of the Irish people?
* If it is a given that British intelligence will always infiltrate and derail a military Re[publican struggle, why will this be any different in the future?
* Can these things really happen?

If the answer to all these points is negative, it follows that a military campaign now or in the forseeable future is futile. It follows that your activists who will go to jail or be killed are wasting their lives. It follows that the people they kill will have been killed in vain.

It is time to address these practical questions of strategy.

by Cael - Sinn Féin Sat May 17, 2008 16:31

Comdt. General Maguire recognised an already established fact in 1969 and 1986, i.e. that the IRA AC is the Governmental Authority of the Irish Republic, and that any body styling itself the AC of the IRA, which fails in its duty to the Irish Republic and recognises British imposed partitionist assemblies is not and cannot be the AC of the IRA, of even part of the IRA. This fact existed indepentent of Comdt. General Maguire's recognition. In 1969 McGiolla & Co. defected from the Republican Movement, as did Adams & Co. in 1986. General Maguire recognised the legitimate AC in 1969 and 1986, and rejected the partitionist defectors - as did all true Republicans.

by Non Republican Sat May 17, 2008 17:05

Cael - all very fine and dandy. For the sake of argument, let us grant you are quite right. But the questions I posed, and which I think most Irish people would echo, remain. To repeat, these are:

* Will planting firebombs in shops in Newry actually achieve your goals and force a united Ireland?
* Will attempting to kill Cathoilics who join the PSNI, by planting bombs under their cars, achieve anything? How???
* Will the Irish people en masse suddenly decide that a military struggle to achieve a united Ireland is worth it, and support you?
* If they don't, can a tiny, tiny minority of people acftually genuinely overcome the resistance of a million Protestants in the north, and the hostility or apathy of the rest of the Irish people?
* If it is a given that British intelligence will always infiltrate and derail a military Republican struggle, why will this be any different in the future?
* Can these things really happen?

Unless you have a convincing answer to these kinds of issues (and I have never heard militaristic Republicans address them), it follows that renewed military activity is at best futile, and possibly counter productive.

by Jim Sat May 17, 2008 17:54

To fight a war you guys need thousands of modern assault rifles and millions of rounds of bullets to engage soldiers, anti-tank rocket launchers and mines to take out armoured vehicles, heat seeking missiles and heavy machine guns to use against helicopters and plastic explosives to blow bridges, power stations, powerlines, telecommunication masts etc.

Where do you hope to source the expertise and finance?

What country is going to give you the surplus army weapons like Libya did in the 1980's (Gaddaffi is friends with Britain again)
or a give you weapons and tactical training?

Last time I heard the 1980's crop of IRA volunteers are all fortysomethings with grey hairs and beer bellies.

Who are you going to send out to ambush the British Army?
A few skinny teenage Ogra members after a few hours of "The Wind that Shakes The Barley" or that homo-erotic Brad Pitt movie "The Devil's Own" to key them up?

by Cael - Sinn Féin Mon May 19, 2008 11:27

Non-Republican, a chara,

As for enemy agents infiltrating the RM, well, colonial powers have always done this, but it has rarely stopped a Revolutionary Movement who's time has come. The key point really is doing the right things at the right time. The incidents you refer to were carried out by the RIRA, I dont know the reasoning behind them, but I commend any action by Irish citizens against enemy forces. As for CIRA, I believe the Army wont be provoked into doing anything before its proper time. This was a large part of the failure of the Border Campaign in the 1950s - it began before the task of politicising the people had been sufficiently carried out. The same happened in 1969. The war was thrown in the IRA's lap at a time when it was realing from the defection of McGiolla & Co. The ranks became swelled with angry young people like Adams and McGuinness, who had little or no idea what Irish Republicanism is about and confused it with British civil rights. This, of course, sowed the seeds of the disaster of 1986. As Ruairí Ó Brádaigh said this month, the massive task that faces the Republican Movement at present is one of education. While the people remain in their current excluded and demoralised state (which is, of course, exactly where the Native and British ruling classes intend keeping us) then there is little hope for progress towards democracy in Ireland, and, as you say, a few bombs wont change that. But education, I believe, will. The fight must be brought to the native Landlord class as much as to the alien British invader. Both depend on each other for their security of tenure on the backs of the Irish people.

by Jim Mon May 19, 2008 15:57

"The fight must be brought to the native Landlord class as much as to the alien British invader."

Are you a nine-year old?

And you Cael with your trusted hurley in one hand and six-shooter in the other is going to save us all from yourselves?
Who's going to help you? Zorro, John Wayne, Dan Dare??

by Cael - Sinn Féin Mon May 19, 2008 23:15

Im very serious Jim.

by Cael - Sinn Fein Wed May 21, 2008 10:52

By the way, Jim, your list of seats at the start of this thread was a totally pointless exercise. If you think Leinster house and Stormont Castle have anything to do with democracy you are very much mistaken.