Sinn Féin objects to Stormont Venue for Gibralter Ceremony

by hopeful Fri Mar 07, 2008 21:01

Maybe one day...

by WT Fri Mar 07, 2008 22:22

Have they forgot about the other women who died during the War? Why not commemorate them all equally?
Is this just another attempt to claw back some vestige of Republicanism because they believe that the writing is on the wall regarding the DUP who no longer want chuckling with the Chuckies and might even move to bring down the Puppet Government in order to save their electoral scalps?
Was even their appearance at the funeral of The Dark another opportunistic attempt to save face? For lets not forget that many of the same people who showed up were those who during his final years had treated him with contempt.
What if Maireid had survived and had taken the same stance as The Dark and the Price Sisters, would she be treated with the same contempt?
It's easy to use someone's name when they are dead.

by Sharon. - Individual . Fri Mar 07, 2008 23:21

Hi Hopeful !

Looking forward to the day when you'll be able to do this for yourself -

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86275

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86354

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86199

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86194

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86164

- maybe one day....

Sharon.

by Carla Sat Mar 08, 2008 07:48

Mairead's family, who wanted the event to go ahead?

Or RSF?

by Sharon. - Individual . Sat Mar 08, 2008 09:23

Hi Carla !

Stormont is the embodiment of the British military and political presence on this island-
a building representative of British imperialism , an ideology which Mairéad Farrell died fighting against.
If Mr Adams and Company insist on commemorating Mairéad - who gave her life fighting against the British writ , not administering it - perhaps they could touch-up their paymasters in the London Treasury for a few bob - thirty pieces of silver should be enough - and hire an hotel function room for a day?

Thanks!

Sharon.

by WT Sat Mar 08, 2008 16:17

Maireid's family should be ashamed of themselves. SF have become a party reduced to grovelling for the crumbs of the table while those they grovel to make much of the fact that they have beaten them into submission and it is they, the DUP who are in control.
The grovelling of McGuinness and Adams after the downfall of Paisley was cringe-worthy at best. The school bully had finally allowed them to be in his gang, isn't he so good?
Don't tell me this is what people died for.

by ??????????? Sun Mar 09, 2008 19:12

do RSF view volunteers who stayed with the provo's after 86 as 'volunteers'

not trying to be smart. just interested

by One RM Sun Mar 09, 2008 19:22

Wasn't it a leading RSF member and veteran that the McKearney and the Lynagh familes asked to give the oration at the unveiling of the monument to these two Volunteers both killed after 86? The RSF//Republican Movement knows ( and knew) their own.

by Sharon . - Individual Sun Mar 09, 2008 21:49

Hi '???????' !
I'm not speaking on behalf of RSF here , but RSF members that I work with are of the opinion that , after the 1986 split , those that went with the Provos constituted a militia aligned with a Leinster House-registered political party : they were 'volunteers' , yes , but in an organisation which took political direction from a constitutional political party , and one which had registered itself with the State as such.

Hi ' One RM' !
I believe that was Gerry McCarthy , from Cork . His involvement was 'advised against' by the leadership of the above-mentioned party , so I'm told . He was known personally by some of the families and was asked to say a few words , but it never came to pass.

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Cael - Sinn Féin Sun Mar 09, 2008 22:48

I think the view of most Republicans is that there were many good Volunteers who stayed with their units after the split and just consentrated on the war effort. Many of them did not live to realise how the philosophical and, indeed logical, ground had been taken from under them by Adams and Co. Volunteers like Jim Lynagh did realise the way things were going and was preparing to break with the Adams misleadership before his death. I dont know anyone in RSF who dosnt have the height of respect for Volunteers like Jim Lynagh and Brendan Hughes.

by ???????????? Mon Mar 10, 2008 16:18

thanks. just wondering because the stament above say's she was involved in an IRA mission.

wasn't sure if it was an error or if they recognised the (p) IRA as legitimate in terms of all that 2nd Dail stuff and that the (C) IRA didn't anounce it's existance untill 94, i think. but if some people see them as a militia, from there logic i can understand it

had an uncle in portlaoise in the early 90's and he said RSF used to visit the prisioners. suppose it was based on common respect as opposed to anything else.

by circles within Mon Mar 10, 2008 17:11

I always got the feeling that there was an rsf affiliated element within the pira (not psf) for a few years after 86. there were certainly more than a few who were known rsf 'sympathizers' (and in many cases strong family conections) and this was not liked by provo hq at all. Volunteers S McElwaine, J Lynagh , P McKearney were three who can be mentioned who were planning on making the inevitable break. There was a definate overlaping for a good two years anyway.

by Sharon . - Individual . Mon Mar 10, 2008 17:25

Hi '?????' !

It would have been a PIRA operation , designed to draw attention to the continuing presence , both politically and militarily , of Westminster , in a part of Ireland.
I wouldn't be as quick as you are to apparently dismiss "...all that 2nd Dail stuff.." , as it is one of the strands in our historical past and is , I believe , just as important to republicans as is any other such strand.

The term 'Continuity' was first used in the context we are talking about here in July 1987, by Comdt. General Tom Maguire (who died in 1993 , aged 101) .
At the time of the split in late1986 , some republican prisoners in Portlaoise Gaol and Maghaberry signalled their continuing support for the republican position and RSF and members from the prisoners support group ('Cabhair') would have visited them , so your Uncle is right on that score.

Hope the above is helpful to you - thanks!

Sharon.

by some hero Mon Mar 10, 2008 17:49

If the Gibralter bomb had succeed it would have been another Enniskillen, innocent people, including Spaniards would have been butchered simply for listening to a military brass band.

MF had a previous conviction for bombing a hotel, she destroyed many innnocent peoples lives.

Murdering innocent people can never be justified.

by LMF Mon Mar 10, 2008 18:25

"Murdering innocent people can never be justified."

Except, it seems, when the British do it, in which case it is justified all the livelong day.

Ever hear of Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris? You can see his statue, which was unveiled by the Queen Mother in 1992, in London.

Not Dresden, London.

by ????????? Mon Mar 10, 2008 19:54

thanks again. thats interesting, i wasn't aware prisioners split in the prisions. i was under the impression RSF were visiting provo's. My ignorance

i didn't mean to be offence with the "all the 2nd dail stuff" just as i understand it that's what's important to RSF.

by Some hero Mon Mar 10, 2008 20:42

So because Britain bombed Dresen, the PIRA were justified in bombing spanish people and other tourists ?

This type of logic is often used by republicans, I once pointed out it was wrong to tar and feather young women in the 1970s, the response, well Britain done it to republicans in 1798 rebellion.

It shows Britain still controls their psychological construct.

by ???? Mon Mar 10, 2008 21:00

there was no explosives found next or near the giberalter 3 when they where shot. The sas had been tailing them for some time and where well aware of this. although they could have been there doing survailaince, though they all had previous records and i presume the IRA could have sent people there who had no history and bring no attention on themselves or any operation. they could have been meeting someone or they could have been there on holiday for all we know.

incidently this was covered by a ITV docomentry called death on the rock. The british state removed the licence from the production company for making programmes again because the programe stated catogoricly that there was no evidence that the 3 were there to plant a bomb

by reality check Mon Mar 10, 2008 22:53

Sharon as you said you support the action which was being planned, would you support the right of ETA to plant a bomb in Dublin if a Spanish military band was playing, or are Irish peoples lives more important then Gibralterians, Spaniards and others ?

by Sharon. - Individual . Mon Mar 10, 2008 23:36

Hi again , '?????' !

A split occurred within all sections of the Movement - for instance , Irish republicans in New York had , within days of the split , contacted RSF with a pledge of support for those who "...stand behind Tom Maguire's statement.." , as had representatives of Irish republican organisations in Boston , Massechutas , San Francisco and Chicago , amongst others , whilst on this isle , the Cumann na mBan organisation was one of the first to explain its position in dis-owning the group which left the Movement with Adams : " Our stance today is not something new for us in Cumann na mBan . One has only to look at the Treaty debates of 1922 and our contribution to them . Again in 1932 when Republicans sided with da Valera on the promise that he would close the jails , we in Cumann na mBan stood by the Republic . Also in 1948 and in 1968 we remained true to that fundamental principle.."

And i would hope that events surrounding the 2nd Dail are important to some outside RSF , as well .

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Sharon. - Individual . Mon Mar 10, 2008 23:52

Hi 'Reality Check' !

I would need more information regarding the circumstances of the scenario you outlined above - such as knowing if , at the time 'the bomb was planted' , the Dublin Administration had forcibly partitioned Spain , and enforced that partition politically and militarily ? And had that and other Dublin political Administrations a bloody history in Spain at the time 'the bomb was planted' and an equally bloody and imperialist history in other countries ?

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Be a Republican / Support RSF Tue Mar 11, 2008 02:27

Hello its good to see these questions asked by a young person, Id like to add to Sharons reply that besides Cumman na mBann, the leadership of Na Fianna Eireann also issued statement in support of the Republican (ie: RSF's) position and, yes there were many prisoners in Portlaoise, Long kesh and England who fully supported RSF.

There was also one prisoner in the states. RSF maintained excellent relations with the LCR prisoners who also split with the provo leadership at that time, LCR prisoners sent fraternal greeting to each RSF ard fheisanna while they (LCR) were in existence, had articles published in SAOIRSE, and many were helped by Cabhair and it was RSF who organised more than one of their prisoners 'welcome home' partys.

Sharom is also correct about the amount of support in the sates in 86, there were still quite a few veterans from the tan and civil wars who had been through the Republican/reformer split a few times and were nto going to be sell out , as Michael Flannery said at the time "if it was wrong for us to go into leinster house with 40, its wrong for you to go in with 4"

there was no question of sucj men and women supporting adams and his brand of free statism, not for Republuicans a chara and that is stil where people worthy of the name will be found , supporting the true Republican Movment Keep asking questions pay attention read yoru history and you will go to correct way.

Stand by the Republic !

by Reality check Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:19

Ah right, so what you are saying is the bombing was justified because Gibralter is under British juristiction, so presumably various Islamic groups, whos countries are under British occupation, would be justified bombing a brass band in Northern Ireland, and taking out innocent Irish people as well, as its under British juristiction ?

by ????????? Tue Mar 11, 2008 15:53

thats interesting about cumman na mban. i thaught they amalgamated with the army, didn't know they left out right. Do they still exist as a military organisation. had a good few family members in there ranks going way back. theres not many books on them, especialy after the civil war. it's one part of history we've been let down on for information. heard that about na fianna but i was under the impression that it was high ranking members in dublin, not the body it's self.

iam not against anybody, i think all over the world people consontate on differance and ignore everything they have in common and that holds people back. i try and do it the other way around, respect diference but consontrate on what people have in common. thats how i live and advance my republicianism if that makes scence. I respect that some people believe the 2nd dail is as important today as it was in the 20ties, it's not for me.

by ??????? Tue Mar 11, 2008 15:57

where are you getting this about a brass band. theres a brit military base on giberalter, has been for hundreds of years. It's statigic importance to the mediterarian is why the brits are there with alot more than a brass band

by Reality check Tue Mar 11, 2008 17:49

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flavius

Operation Flavius was the name given to an operation by a Special Air Service team in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988 tasked with preventing a Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) bomb plot. The IRA active service unit's members, Danny McCann, Seán Savage and Mairéad Farrell, conspired to detonate a bomb where the band assembled for the weekly changing of the guard at the governor’s residence.

Bomb plot
Their plan was to hide the bomb in a car so as to kill the British Army military band that was assembling for the parade. In order to ensure a parking space in a busy town area, it was necessary to reserve it on the preceding Sunday.

The SAS team was incorrectly informed that the IRA had already placed their bomb and were ready to detonate it. The three were stopped as they walked near the Shell filling station in Winston Churchill Avenue, the busy main road leading to the Airport and the Spanish frontier. McCann was then shot as the SAS claimed he made an 'aggressive move' towards a bag he was carrying. They stated he was intending to trigger a car bomb using a remote control device. After McCann was killed, it was claimed that Farrell made a move towards her handbag and was shot on similar grounds. SAS members again claimed that Savage moved his hand to his pocket and the SAS killed him also.

McCann was shot five times, Farrell eight times, and Savage between 16 and 18 times. All three were subsequently found to be unarmed, and without any kind of remote trigger. Materials for a bomb, including 64 kg of Semtex, were later found in a car in Spain, identified by keys found in Farrell's handbag.[1]

by think please Tue Mar 11, 2008 17:57

is there a miltary base there? or just this brass band sitting all alone out on the rock playing songs to the mermaids?

by Reality check Tue Mar 11, 2008 18:11

The car with the explosives in was to target the military band as they paraded in the town centre, (as they did every week), it was a soft target, the PIRA unit were not attempting to breach the security of military base.

If it had succeded it was potententially another Omagh or Enniskillen.

Farrell had previously been convicted of bombing a hotel.

I dont see what right republicans have to support actions which take out innocent people, which would have happened, yet go on about civil and human rights.

Republican hypocrisy is extraordinary.

by answer Tue Mar 11, 2008 18:15

so is the answer that the British have more than just this brass band there?

by ????????? Tue Mar 11, 2008 19:41

in 1987 giberalter had a boarder checkpoint with spain. the car the 3 traveled in like all cars passing the check point was filmed crossing the boarder. the car was checked, there was no wate in the boot of the car as demonstrated by no backward tilt at the back axis. The 3 died, what ever there intentions died with them. the wikipidia article was spin put out by the brit government in the after math. this was later challaged in the death on the rock film by itv.

by Reality check Tue Mar 11, 2008 20:40

McCann, however, would be dead within the year - betrayed by one of his most trusted associates in the Provisional IRA - shot down with two other members of the IRA, Sean Savage and Mairead Farrell, in Gibraltar.

McCann had every reason to trust 'Ruby' Davison.

They had been charged - along with Sean Savage and four others - with the murder in September 1981 of RUC Constable Alexander Beck.

He died in an IRA rocket attack on his Land Rover as it drove through the Suffolk area of west Belfast.

They were later cleared of involvement in the killing, but Davison was someone McCann believed he could trust.

In early February 1988, the two met in Belfast's Markets area where Davison was the local IRA commander.

A chance remark by McCann when leaving would lead the security forces directly to events in Gibraltar four weeks later.

RECCE

"Davison had said 'cheerio' and said he'd be in touch with McCann, and McCann had replied that he was off to Spain for a while," a former Branch officer told Sunday Life.

"Davison asked how long McCann would be away on holiday and McCann replied that 'this is no holiday - I'm going on a recce (reconnaissance)'."

Within hours Davison had reported this conversation with McCann to his handler in RUC Special Branch.

Alarm bells rang at MI5 HQ inside the Northern Ireland Office's political development unit.

A task force involving Special Branch, MI5 and Army Intelligence met within days and McCann was placed under 24-hour surveillance.

The IRA had been active in attacks across Europe, hitting British targets in Holland and Germany.

The security services knew that a trip to Spain by someone as senior as McCann could mean only one thing - an attack on security force personnel in Gibraltar.

McCann, Savage, Farrell and a fourth IRA member flew to Malaga on Friday, March 4, checked into a hotel using false names and hired a Renault 5 from Avis Car Rentals.

Just after 3.30pm on Sunday, March 6, the IRA members left the car near to where members of the Royal Anglian Regiment band were due to play 48 hours later.

Within minutes, all three IRA members were shot dead.

A dozen-strong SAS team had been awaiting their arrival on the Rock since February 19.

All three IRA members were unarmed. One witness claimed they were shot as they were trying to surrender, and their deaths have caused controversy ever since.

In a statement read to the inquests, one of the SAS soldiers said McCann had looked towards him in a split second before the shooting began.

He added: "I was just about the shout a warning to stop and at the same time I was drawing my pistol and the effect overtook the warning.

"He looked straight at me. We literally had eye-to-eye contact and the smile went off his face.

"It's hard to describe. It's as though McCann had a realisation of who I was, as though I was a threat to him."

The SAS officer claimed he opened fire believing McCann was going to detonate a device in the Renault.

SEMTEX

That car, however, was empty. Spanish police in Marbella later recovered more than 100lb of Semtex explosive from a Ford Fiesta rented by Farrell in the name of Catherine Smith

by ??????? Tue Mar 11, 2008 21:14

i can guess as well. maybe they were meeting basques, maybe they were moveing weapons maybe they wanted to see the airplane run way with apublic road running through it.

by Sharon. - Individual . Tue Mar 11, 2008 22:52

Hi 'Reality Check' !

You wrote - "Ah right, so what you are saying is the bombing was justified because Gibralter is under British juristiction... "
Where did I say that ?
This is what I said in reply to the scenario you put to me -
" I would need more information regarding the circumstances of the scenario you outlined above - such as knowing if , at the time 'the bomb was planted' , the Dublin Administration had forcibly partitioned Spain , and enforced that partition politically and militarily ? And had that and other Dublin political Administrations a bloody history in Spain at the time 'the bomb was planted' and an equally bloody and imperialist history in other countries ?"
Where exactly - in the above - did I refer to 'Gibralter and British jurisdiction' ?
Are you deliberately attempting to waste my time by constructing a 'straw-man' argument or does that post you wrote belong in a different thread ?
"Ah right" : I think I know.....

Hi '?????' !

Cumann na mBan still exist , yes , and , as usual , they will have a representative present at the Republican Easter Commemoration on Easter Monday next (March 24) in Dublin , at the GPO at 2.30pm (leaving the Garden Of Remembrance at 2pm) .
And I understand that the Second Dail 'may not be for you' - indeed , there are parts of our history which I don't 'agree' with , but I would not dismiss them as 'unimportant' or whatever.

Thanks!

Sharon.

by Against ultra nationalism Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:31

I always find it amusing when people claiming to be socialists, support the actions of people, whos leaders in their real lives are often smugglers and millionarire pig farmers, ie ultra capitalists.

And support attacks on working class people being bombed on their way to work on the tube or drinking in a pub, for the crime of being born in England.

by Cael - Sinn Fein Wed Mar 12, 2008 14:16

You are taking about the Adamsites there, who I agree, are not socialists.

by Godot Sun Mar 16, 2008 19:34

For the record (and so we don't have to once again debate every aspect of these incident's here): the European Court on Human Rights found the British Government guilty of these murders in 1995.

You can read their findings here: http://www.gibnet.com/texts/gibira.htm

by Sceptic Mon Mar 17, 2008 14:40

A breach of Article 2 , in this case the use of more force than was absolutely necessary to the point of lethality is not murder as Godot asserts. No lawyer would construe that. Moreover the decision not to pay compensation to the relatives was a defacto statement that a tort had not taken place. Much of the cotemporaneous legal comment on the judgment was to the effect that while excessive force might have been used, strong action against these parties was nonetheless justified by the British authorities in the circumstances. It is beyond question that had the IRA team succeeded in their mission that would have been an act of multiple murder under any legal order operating in Europe at the time.