Can the Left be revived in Sligo/Leitrim

by info Thu Dec 14, 2006 14:18

The Socialist Party (i.e. Joe Higgins's party) won't be running in sligo.

by Jan Palach Thu Dec 14, 2006 14:24

Any of the proletariat in Sligo / Leitrim should feel free to take the job on.

Not quite sure what left actually existed in the mind of the opening contributor considering he seems to associate SF and LP in the same breath as Comrade Higgins.

Remember Sligo and Leitrim Comrades, the particle is of varying sizes and can accomodate all shoulders.

by reply to info Thu Dec 14, 2006 14:26

Can the left be revived Nationwide?

The collapse of the left is far to important to have it parochialised.
It’s a pity we don’t have a 100 Joes to run in every constituency but the reality is we don't, there is only one Joe Higgins and no-one else can even remotely begin to fill his shoes.

Perhaps we should have a rethink, swipe away all the old and failed stalwarts of the left and build a new party from the ground up.

by Justin M K Thu Dec 14, 2006 15:01

There isn’t a Socialist Party branch in Sligo. The word on the ground in Sligo is that Declan Bree will announce that he will stand early in the new year. He continues to be active on all issues, organising public meeting and events on the war on Iraq, Palestine, shell to sea, cuba etc. SF and Labour have stopped organising and campaigning on the ground. But given the fact that the constituency is now a 3 seater it will be very difficult for bree to take a seat.

by SP member Thu Dec 14, 2006 15:16

If thats the case why waste time/effort and resources on a candidate who can't get elected.

More effort into mobilising the grass roots. There has to a lot of support on the ground there for the future developement of an SP candidate there. So in that case forget the election, the figures in the main article say Fuck All and Fuck Gael have it sown up for now anyways.

remian active on the issues on the ground, show the people that the SP are more than Lip service, then we can address elections after proving ourselves.

by Socialist Party member Thu Dec 14, 2006 15:21

If only there were a hundred Joes in every constituency, now there's an interesting thought. It's important however that people realise that they can't just sit around and wait for a magical solution to show up on the ballot paper. The electoral successes of the Socialist Party (limited as they may be) have been based on activism and grassroots involvement. It wouldn't even matter if we could fill Dail Eireann with a hundred socialists because unless this had the support of the workers and change had been implemented at every level of society it would mean nothing.
If you want a Socialist Party candidate to run in your constituency but there is no branch then it is up to you set the ball rolling by forming a branch. It's not easy, it's not glamorous but it does have its rewarding moments.

by Ray S. Thu Dec 14, 2006 16:59

The Socialist party did have some individual party members in Sligo in the past but they were not really active. Bree is the only leftie who has been consistent in terms of activism on the ground. The Connolly forum holds events regularly and Bree is the chair of the forum. I think that if bree could pick up a lot of McManus’s transfers he could possibly make it.

by SP member Thu Dec 14, 2006 17:13

Isn’t he in the Labour Party? Anyway his name wasn’t even mentioned in the poll so if his figures didn’t warrant print he must have discounted by Labour.

I wasn’t aware there are SP activists on the ground there will have to check.
If that’s the case then more energy should re-directed to their grass roots activism.

An independent (M Harkin) dropped out of the running but she was Centre/RW so her 2nd preferences wouldn’t go to a Socialist candidate and it’s to close to the election to for SP activism on the ground to reflect in electoral success so we should just concentrate on getting the issues of the people sorted for now.

by Ray S Thu Dec 14, 2006 18:03

Only sitting T.D’s and those who have declared to date were included in the poll. Bree is still in Labour but its expected that he will not be for much longer

by John Thu Dec 14, 2006 18:47

So much for claims that the majority of people support the anti-Shell campaign. This constituency is next door to Mayo, but support for parties involved in the anti-Shell campaign has collapsed. Pro-Shell candidates are getting almost 90 per cent of the votes. Its a particular disaster for Sinn Fein. A border constituency in which they're polling 6 per cent and in which no other far-left candidate was included in the poll. They got 10 per cent in 2002. This is in line with other recent polls showing SF support slumping. The Sinn Fein bubble has well and truly burst and they're in freefall. So much for the ludicrous A.R.S.E. campaign currently being conducted by Baby Sinn Fein, which has been well documented on this site. A good bet with the bookies would be Sinn Fein to get zero seats in the election.

by SP member Thu Dec 14, 2006 19:13

There are no far left candidates in Sligo/leitrim full stop.

by C Maguire Thu Dec 14, 2006 22:06

Justin and Ray

Declan wont win a seat here. He had his chance before and he blew it. His days of ever winning a dail seat in this constituency are long gone now.

As for picking up transfers from MacManus, that will do him no good because he will be well behind MacManus.

by Vincent Carty Fri Dec 15, 2006 00:21

Who seriously believes that Bree is a leftie? There is no left wing candidate in this constituency.

Bree supported service charges while a TD between 92 and 97, supported the retention of refuse charges when the other charges were abolished and voted for the Tax Amnesty. Yeah a true leftie - not.

Not to mention his cosy pact with FF on both Sligo Borough and Sligo County Councils.

He is a simple opportunist willing to sell out his constituents. he done it before which is why he failed to be re elected and he sure as hell will do it again.

by Ray S. Fri Dec 15, 2006 00:28

C Maguire may be right but given the collapse in the Sinn Fein vote and brees high profile in the period since he was elected Mayor of Sligo, he would appear to be the only alternative to the right wing candidates.

I will ignore Vincent Cartys posting - he is obviously a disgruntled blueshirt

by Vincent Carty Fri Dec 15, 2006 00:33

Ray Im not a blueshirt, disgruntled or otherwise. I am a socialist and proud of it. That is why i am sad that there is no left wing candidate here.

Just tell me though, what did I post that was or is factually incorrect. Nothing, he's not a leftie. He DID vote for the Tax Amnesty. Thats a Fact.

by Topper Fri Dec 15, 2006 00:59

"A good bet with the bookies would be Sinn Fein to get zero seats in the election."

I’m gonna note that one down in my head, John. You have a truly awesome record of completely wrong predictions on this site. It’s quite uncanny, when you predict that something will happen, it’s a sure fire guarantee that the opposite scenario is on the cards (see for example, your repeated predictions of doom for the S2S campaign, which apparently has been fizzling out every month since the Rossport 5 were first imprisoned).

But that one really is a prize specimen. I suppose it would be too much to expect that when you’re proven completely wrong in a few months’ time, you bow out of the whole predictions business. I’m not a Shinner and have no particular stake in them winning seats, but any fool knows your “zero” prediction is laughable.

by C Maguire Fri Dec 15, 2006 01:03

Ray S. Declan will never outpoll MacManus. He will not get near him in all fairness. He will lose a fairly substantial portion of the Labur vote to McGarry, though not all by a long shot. But he will lose a huge chunk of the centre labour vote as opposed to the old members and supporters of Brees organisation. Indeed, even within that, a lot of those previous supporters and activists have stuck with Labour and McGarrys candidacy, not all too enthusiastically, but still supporting him all the same.

But it will impinge on his vote fairly significantly. Mac Manus will probably take somewhere in the region of 3 - 3500 votes. Declan will be lucky to get anywhere close to 2000, thats the reality now. He wont make that up intransfers and even if he did he wouldnt get anyway near a seat. Neither will MacManus by the way.

by Marty B Fri Dec 15, 2006 01:14

Vincent Carty says there are no left wing candidates in Sligo/leitrim. If McManus and Bree are not left wing who in Sligo/Leitrim would he describe as left?

Is it normal for right wingers to campaign for workers rights, for Palestine, Iraq, Venezuela, Cuba, for shell to sea, for gay rights, for travellers rights.

Vincent is obviously a disgruntled blueshirt.

by Vincent Carty Fri Dec 15, 2006 01:21

Again, I am not a blueshirt. I am a socialist. Unfortunately I have no-one here that I can vote for, such as the Socialist Party or others such as Seamus Healy. Neither MacManus or Bree are truly left wing. Both engaged in pacts with fianna Fail. Both supported service charges at various stages of their careers. Bree voted for the Tax Amnesty. The Tax Amnesty. How can that be squared with socialism. I would love to vote for a socialist candidate here but I cannot. Sad. But maybe Joe Higgins might try to start organising here sometime soon. Lets hope so.

by Geraldine Rooney Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:30

Heres what the ISN had to say about him

"The Irish Labour Party is experiencing a strange phenomenon which has occurred in many social democratic parties: as the party shifts to the right the timid centre leftists such as Michael D. Higgins (remember the tax amnesties?) and Declan Bree appear extremely radical."

http://irishsocialist.net/publications_the_irish_labour....html

I suppose they are disgruntled blue shirts too.

He supported tax Amnesties then he is no bloody left winger.

And for the record, no-one is elected to Mayor, they are nominated by their parties and voted for by sitting councillors. This is usually a pre-determined relationship agreed between the Majority parties. So that cant be used an endorsement of anyone by the people.
It could also be said that anyone putting that chain around thier neck gives the ultimate endorsement to the track record of that council and in light of the neo-liberal policies been forced upon the people of this country that is something no true left winger would do.

by Young Socialist Wed Dec 27, 2006 15:47

Could someone explain to me waht the tax amnesty was and why Labour voted for it?

I am no fan of theirs,and am getting quite annoyed with members of their party and youth wing constantly claiming to be socialists when it is abundantly clear to everyone else that the policies they pursue are anything but..
A little extra ammunition wouldnt go to waste...

by Bitter Socialist Wed Dec 27, 2006 23:19

The tax amnesty was the crowning grace of the Fianna Fail - Labour government in the early nineties. Basically any wealthy crook who'd been avoiding tax illegally could own up and they wouldn't face any legal penalties, any threat of prosecution or even a fine. A bit hard to square that one with socialist principles. Then a few years later, Labour and DL were in government with FG and there was a stink about social welfare fraud - nobody suggested giving an amnesty to the "dole cheats" ... should be more details about the tax amnesty if you look up the Irish Times archive or something like that

Declan Bree doesn't seem the worst in fairness, his heart is clearly in the right place and he's a lot better than most Labour heads, but voting for the tax amnesty isn't a great thing to have on your record

by once bitten Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:14

The fact is that no socialist would ever vote for a tax amnesty. Bree was elected by people who wanted change. When elected to the Dail, he promptly joined the gravy train and forgot about his socialist principles, not to mention his constituents. Come to Sligo and look at the way the place is run. You'd swear you had just landed in Geb Bush's Florida and Bree is a long standing senior member of the local establishment. Enough said.

by Sinom Fri Dec 29, 2006 13:08

Yes, the current Labour Party General Election candidate, Jim McGarry, consistently voted in favour of bin charges. He also supported the privatisation of the bin service.

In contrast it must be said that Cawley and bree always voted against the bin charges.

by Marty B Fri Dec 29, 2006 13:29

‘Once Bitten’ says “come to Sligo and look at the way the place is run. You’d swear you had landed in Geb Bush’s Florida and Bree is a long standing member of the local establishment.”

Obviously ‘Once bitten’ has never been to Sligo, knows noting of the politics of Sligo, nor reads the local Sligo press.

Whatever one thinks about Bree - to describe him as a member of the local establishment is off the wall. The local establishment would string Bree up by the neck if they had an opportunity. He has been a thorn in their flesh month after month, year after year. While I also admire McManus I would say that he has never criticised the establishment or taken on the establishment the way Bree has

by Peter K Fri Dec 29, 2006 14:27

Bree is such a thorn in the establishment of Sligo that he became Mayor.
A position that requires the candidate to be endorsed by the sitting council.
There even exists a pact between the parties to rotate the Mayors position for Gods sake.

He has been described by ISN as a timid centre leftist.
He has the poise and demeanor of an upper-class pompous ass, all he’s missing is the monocle and brass topped cane.

He has no chance of being elected and no amount of sycophant hacks saying his heart is in the right place whilst giving a tacit nod to Mc Manus will change that.

There is no Left in Sligo. The question asked by the Heading Article was ‘Can the Left be revived in Sligo?’

The answer is yes, but not by clapping the backs of the very guys who sank it in the first place. Bree and McManus have sold out. A lot of people in Sligo are solidly aware of this. That is why they will never ever get elected to Dail Eireann.

Bree makes a lot of noise about the international leftist struggles and chairs talk shops to that effect, that wont damage him locally in any real sense or alienate him from the very gombeens that put the Mayors chain around his neck

As soon as he adorned that chain he lost all credibility IMHO.

As already stated before in this thread “Bree supported service charges while a TD between 92 and 97, supported the retention of refuse charges when the other charges were abolished and voted for the Tax Amnesty”

This was discounted as the ramblings of a disgruntled Blue Shirt?
Yet no evidence or links to refute the truth.

Are these the actions of a left wing socialist?

Hardly.

In any case, come the election Bree and Mc Manus won’t be elected. That is a certainty.
Opinion polls in the main article back this up and it is well known locally that Bree enjoys less support than McManus, so all this is rather arbitrary and moot.

by SP Member Fri Dec 29, 2006 16:54

Yeah sure. The local establishment strung Bree up by the neck alright, only they did it with the Mayoral chains of office.

Please stop floggin a dead horse.

by Marty B Fri Dec 29, 2006 23:34

It’s common knowledge that Bree became Mayor of Sligo in 2004 because of the level of criticism levelled at all politicians and political parties during the course of that years local elections campaign. The fact that Bree had been excluded from the position of Mayor for over 25 years despite the fact that he was the longest serving member of Sligo council was highlighted and debated on practically every radio programme in the run up to the elections. The councillors had little choice. Anyone in Sligo will tell you he was the popular choice of the people of Sligo and that’s why he was unanimously elected by all of the councillors.
I don’t know what the ISN is. It has never been active in Sligo or the north-west.
The only criticism I have read about bree in his decades in politics is that he supported a tax amnesty in the 90’s. While I feel he made a mistake in supporting the amnesty I understand that other left representatives including Michael D O’ Higgins and Jim Kemmy also supported the amnesty on the grounds that the revenue commissioners recommended it at the time.
Bree never voted for bin charges in all his years. I know McManus and the Sinn Fein councillors in Sligo did vote for the bin charges but that was part of a deal they had with Fianna Fail on the Council.They were wrong to do so and I think they paid the price.
All of us will disagree at one time or another with particular decisions that our representatives take. I am happy with the vast majority of decisions taken by Bree and McManus. They put forward a left wing position and I don’t think there is a local council west of the Shannon with such left wing representation.
If Bree and McManus is not acceptable to Peter K / ‘once bitten, perhaps he can tell us who we should take the lead from and who the left activists are in this region.

by Vincent Carty Fri Dec 29, 2006 23:43

Bree became Mayor because of a Pact with Fianna Fail. He and his labour collegaues also have a pact on Sligo County Council too which included Bree supporting Jimmy McGarry for the position of Council Chairperson despite Brees supposed opposition to McGarry because of his support for the wars in Iraq and Afganistan and his support for Bin Charges and privatisation.

As part of the pacts, Bree has continued to vote FF cllrs into the position of Mayor (Tom McSharry) this year.

As a TD from 92 to 97 Bree supported refuse charges and he supported the retention of Bin Charges by Brendan Howlin when the other charges were abloished back in 97.

As for the Tax Amnesty, his support for it is not a minor affair or mistake. It is a major issue and one which tells a lot about the true nature and ideology of any politician.

by Marty B Sat Dec 30, 2006 00:02

I see that Vincent Carty the blueshirt is back on line.
Vincent must be the only "socialist" in Sligo that no one has ever heard of here.

by Vincent Carty Sat Dec 30, 2006 00:19

Where did you get the notion that I am a blueshirt? I am not and have nothing but contempt for Fine Gael or anyone (including so called socialists like Labour) that would coalesce with them.

I am a socialist and proud of it. I have never heard of you either. Does that mean you are not one either? By your logic, you must be a blueshirt then, is that right?

Are only people vouched for by you considered to be socialist? Do we need your blessing to be a socialist?

Look, at the end of the day I would not consider either Bree or MacManus as socialist. They both failed miserably when having the chance to show what they were made of. Yes, they are more left wing than others in the region, but that in itself is not saying a lot. There is a need for a left alternative in Sligo, but that should be an alternative to Bree/MacManus also.

by SP Member Sat Dec 30, 2006 02:41

Marty.... The ISN is the Irish Socialist Network.

Your ignorance to their existence speaks volumes.

They have been linked earlier in the thread to demonstrate their particular take on charlatan socialists like Declan Bree.

But if you want to read up them yourself here is the link.

http://irishsocialist.net/

You will find they are far from blueshirts as they represent a sizeable portion of left-wing thinking in this country (I presume Sligo is still a part of this Country?)

Please Marty, except facts. Bree sold out. He did it nearly 15 yrs ago.

But more over please except he will never ever be elected as a TD again.
This thread could continue until hell freezes over and that will always be the case.

I'll tell you what, we will wait till the election is over and then we can have a game of 'I told you so'

Blind myopic sniveling never elected anybody, yet you still think that to be the case.

If he has told you that he poised to join the Socialist Party well all you need do is give Joe Higgins a call at (01) 618 3038 and he will set you straight.

by once bitten Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:02

A few questions Marty. Did Bree vote for the sitting FF mayor of Sligo? Will he vote for the FF candidate next June and the following June? Is he doing this to honour a pact that he has entered into with FF? What is in this pact for his constituents? Lets see the detail of the pact.
Marty asks for alternatives, but maybe there is no need for alternatives if those who say they are socialists started to act like it. Sligo will soon start the charade of "debating" the estimates. Thats a good place to start by refusing to vote for estimates that do not contain adequate funds to provide vital local services such as bin collection. But will the "pact" allow Bree the space to defend and look after those struggling on small incomes? Enough waffle Marty, lets have some action.

by Marty B Sat Dec 30, 2006 15:01

Socialist Party member criticises my ignorance because I am not familiar with ISN.
I have now looked at the ISN website and find it interesting. It appears to be a small left group with people from Dublin and Belfast involved. I am not clear if it is associated with the Socialist Party. It does not appear to have members in the West. I must admit that I had never heard of it or of any of its activities.
Once Bitten’ said earlier “come to Sligo and look at the way the place is run. You’d swear you had landed in Geb Bush’s Florida” and now he gets excited because Bree voted for a Fianna Fail councillor for the position of Mayor. I am still trying to get a handle on the Sligo association with Bush’s Florida!
As for Bree voting for a FF Mayor, to my knowledge he has voted for Mayors and Chairs from all parties, FF, FG, SF, Lab and Ind over the years - it’s a normal process of local government and will remain so until directly elected Chairs are introduced.
Finally if Bree and McManus are not considered left wing by Once Bitten and Co please tell me what candidates in the last number of local elections in Sligo represented the genuine left?

by M. Mahon Sat Dec 30, 2006 15:35

I lived in Sligo for six years and I read the local press and coverage of council meetings and it must be said that Mcmanus and Bree consistently raise matters that would never be heard of at Council meetings elsewhere items like trade union recognition, privatisation of Aer Lingus, Rossport, low pay, Palestine etc – when I lived in Longford/Roscommon I never heard of issues like these being raised at Council meetings. It strikes me that in this country no matter how much you do there will always be the begrudgers sitting on the ditch just waiting to point the finger and criticise. If James Connolly himself came back I have no doubt but that he too would be criticised by the same anonymous begrudgers. Much of the material on Indymedia is very positive but I must admit that I find the nitpicking by a small number of contributors irritating. I suppose that’s the price we must pay.

by Pat E. Sat Dec 30, 2006 16:15

Two weeks ago when the TG4 MRBI Poll was published I asked could the Left be revived in Sligo/Leitrim.

In the intervening period the response has been practically all negative including attacks on Sean McManus and Declan Bree (despite the fact that Bree’s name was not even included in the poll).

Could we have some positive input, ideas, suggestions, proposals about reviving the left. If some people have particular grudges against Declan Bree or Sean McManus please use another thread to vent your spleen.

Please - ideas are required. This isn’t about personalities

by Kevin Doyle Sat Dec 30, 2006 17:53

By asking the question 'Can the left be revived in Sligo?' at least you recognise that there is no left in Sligo, hence the need to revive it.

I agree that there has been some bickering, but there has been attempts by supporters of Bree/McManus (or perhaps Bree/McManus themselves-who knows- anonymous postings etc etc) to suggest that they are the answer to that question when they are not.
They have been councilors for years and have supported policies which are clearly at odds with left wing ideology. These policies have been listed above so I won't repeat them

It has also been suggested that Bree could possibly fill the vacuum created by Harkins inamorous departure. That is simply fantasy.

If Sean McManus got his act together and went back to his socialist/republican roots then he might just get a seat. The fact he isnt winning Dail seats in a landslide is an indication that something is wrong.
SF is in a strong position here in Dublin and is doing well out of Labours sickening migration to the right (isn’t Bree a member of said Labour?)
So Sean should see gains there as a result.

Another alternative would be to start from the ground up. Contact the Socialist Party at [email protected]

Tell them you want to become active under their umbrella in the Sligo area and organise meetings etc etc. Grass roots activism is what people respond to not lofty idealism and haughty posturing. And then when the hard graft is done enter a candidate into elections.
It’s up to you guys in Sligo

by Realist Sat Dec 30, 2006 18:12

"Another alternative would be to start from the ground up. Contact the Socialist Party at [email protected]
Tell them you want to become active under their umbrella in the Sligo area and organise meetings etc etc. Grass roots activism is what people respond to not lofty idealism and haughty posturing. And then when the hard graft is done enter a candidate into elections.
It’s up to you guys in Sligo"

If only it were so easy. Setting up a branch of the SP is not like getting a Londis franchise. You would need to have an academic knowledge of the Russian Revolution and view it only from the writings of Leon Trotsky. You would also need to be vetted by the Thomas Street HQ. It would be misleading to say that being involved in grass roots activism and hard graft is all that is required to set up a SP branch.

by Dave Sat Dec 30, 2006 18:17

I agree with the realist above. But it is no more 'realist' to pretend the answer, my friend, is Declan 'long live Yuri Andropov' Bree. Word is he'll be busy anyway, down in Galway organising his sister-in-law's campaign to unseat Michael D. Higgins.

by Marty B Sat Dec 30, 2006 18:44

Kevin Doyle suggests that those who are criticising Bree and McManus should organise an alternative by contacting the Socialist Party and organising grass root activism. I believe that the establishment of a Socialist Party branch in Sligo would be welcomed and would strengthen the left in Sligo. This would provide Once bitten, Vincent Carty etc with an opportunity to get off their backsides and begin organising grass root activism. Let’s see if these people exist and if they are prepared to do hard grafting!!
In the meantime the only people organising at grass root level in Sligo are McManus and Bree. In my opinion both of them would be willing to work with the Socialist Party.
In my last contribution I posed the question, if Bree and McManus are not considered left wing by Once Bitten and Co please tell me what candidates in the last number of local elections in Sligo represented the genuine left? Why no response? Are Once Bitten, Carty and co really genuine left or are they FF/FG just trying to wind people up with black propaganda.

by Kevin Doyle Sat Dec 30, 2006 18:55

I wasn’t trying to mislead any one. Hard graft is exactly what that means, hard graft. Nothing easy about it at all. You are the one who is misleading with off the wall analogies.

Look, alternatives and suggestions where asked for so I gave some.
Becoming a Socialist Party member does not require in-depth knowledge of the Russian revolution but an appreciation of the history of the workers struggle everywhere would be an advantage and certainly helps weed out the wannabes.

And of course candidates are vetted by Thomas St. All parties vet their candidates. Nothing unique there comrade.

The only difference is the Socialist Party is credible and genuinely Left Wing.
People will know what they are voting for and won’t have to deal with any surprising U-turns or sell outs.

As for Trotsky, I’d rather him over Stalin any day.

by Kevin Doyle Sat Dec 30, 2006 19:22

“Kevin Doyle suggests that those who are criticising Bree and McManus should organise an alternative by contacting the Socialist Party and organising grass root activism”

You are attempting to imply I was trying to silence Bree/McManus critics by asking them to put up or shut up.
I was suggesting no such thing and your play on words is depressing given the seriousness of the discussion.

“In my last contribution I posed the question, if Bree and McManus are not considered left wing by Once Bitten and Co please tell me what candidates in the last number of local elections in Sligo represented the genuine left? Why no response?”

I would say there was no genuine representation of the left hence the original question posed at the start of this thread. “Can the left be revived in Sligo/Leitrim?”
That question would not need to be asked if the Left had been genuinely represented. I would have thought that obvious.

Once bitten, Vincent Carty etc have themselves asked questions in this thread. Questions of the very people you are defending. Questions striking at the very heart of the issue here and shedding doubt whether these people are truly left wing at all.
So the same thing could be asked of you “Why no response?”

The only reply is an arbitrary dismissal of these guys as FF/FG infiltrators spreading black propaganda.

What the hell is going on up there?

by Leftwatch Sat Dec 30, 2006 21:18

Regarding an earlier posting, as the recent indymedia debate on the ISNs document of elections revealed, the politics of the ISN and the SP are quite different on some key questions. The ISN is a marxist organisation that is organised according to the principles of participatory democracy while the SP is a marxist-leninist organisation that is organised according to democratic centralist principles. The ISN has worked with the SP ( and with other left organisations) in various campaigns despite such differences but these are very distinct organisations. The SP is the larger organisation with a history (in ireland) stretching back to the 1970s while the smaller ISN is only about six years in existence.

Check them out for yourself at:

www.irishsocialist.net

www.socialistparty.net

by D. Jago Sun Dec 31, 2006 15:55

There is no way Bree could work with the SP or any of the other Trotskyite groups. He comes from a Stalinist background ie Connolly Youth. In his day he was pro soviet and is still very pro Castro. He also associates with the Communist Party and even has a speech he delivered at this years Labour Youth Festival posted on the CP website. He was prominent at Michael O’Riordans funeral earlier this year and last month he shared a platform with the General Secretary of the CP at a commemorative event for O’Riordan in Belfast. When Bree was Mayor of Sligo he held receptions in the City Hall for a number of Cuban delegations and he had the Cuban Ambassador as guest of honour at his “Mayoral Ball” I can’t see him and the Socialist Party seeing eye to eye.

by Cropbeye - None Sun Dec 31, 2006 18:52 Cork

Surely the most practical thing to do for a leftist is to use the electoral system we have

to the fullest. In other words put up a new candidate now who can get the votes of the

serious left and then continue the preferences to either Bree or McManus who would be

the least bad of the remaining candidates. The new candidate would start to get a profile

would be meeting a lot of the Sligo public on the ground and get a dialogue going.

Then he or she might have a realistic chance of getting elected at the next local

elections in 09.

by M. R. Dolan Mon Jan 01, 2007 00:22

Taking into consideration the fact that Declan Bree has strong views on the national question I figure it would have been very difficult for him to work with the Socialist Party in the past. While he consistently criticised the Provos for what he described as their elitist military campaign he always said the root cause of the problem was British Imperialism. He caused consternation in the Labour party on occasions when he was in the Dail when he criticised the Brits. He has always described himself as a Connolly Socialist. While Bree might share many of the views of the Socialist Party he would definitely have a different view to them on the issue of Northern Ireland

by Marty B Mon Jan 01, 2007 15:03

I asked Once Bitten, Vincent Carty and Co - if Bree and McManus are not considered left wing please tell me what candidates in the last number of local elections in Sligo represented the genuine left? I note there is still no reply. Clearly confirmation the Once Bitten, Carty etc are FF/FG lackeys

by Vincent Carty Mon Jan 01, 2007 15:57

How the hell does that mean I am a FF/FG lackey?

I made my position clear. I know that both Bree and MacManus are more left wing than any of the other public reps in Sligo and Leitrim but I also do not consider that they are genuine left wing and committed socialists. I gave the examples of Mayoral pacts with FF, supporting bin charges etc supporting tax amnesties etc as reasons for that. It doesnt mean that they never do any good, because they do, but that does not take away from the fact that they are not genuine socialists.

And there has been no genuine left wing candidates in Sligo in recent elections if my memory is right, though I could be wrong in that. There is noone like Joe Higgins or Seamus Healy etc here in this region which is the point I made when I first posted on this thread.

by once bitten Mon Jan 01, 2007 17:59

Not for the first time those that support Bree (the pile of pseudonym's is mounting) resort to name calling. As I pointed out in a previous comment, actions and not waffle are what the situation requires. If Bree is a socilaist as he claims and not a "me feiner" as many believe, lets see him fight to ensure that the upcoming estimates contain provisions for the less well-off. Organising meetings to support comrades in far off places is safe and fine but we have a few local issues that require attention. For example, Sligo has no bin waiver for pensioners and those on welfare. Let Bree insist that the price for his continued support for the pact with FF will be that money will be allocated in the budget to introduce a waiver. Let him make it clear that he will not vote for an FFer for Mayor next June unless a waiver is in place by then.That would be a start. At least we could then see some tangible reason for a socialist to enter a pact with the current FF party which is by far the most right wing version we have seen to-date.
I had decided, out of respect for Indymedia, to cease contributing to this thread because the more it continues the more it appears that it was started, not to encourage an open debate or impart information but rather to propagate the notion that Bree is the solution to the demise of socialist values in the running of local Councils in the North West. In short, propaganda. That is an abuse and I respectfully suggest that those posting threads should be asked to consider giving their full name.
With regard to the fixation with the politics of former candidates, surely it is more important to look forward and see if we can indentify a Socialist to support in coming elections. If Joe Higgins sets up a Sligo branch I will be the first to apply for membership.
By the way I will return to this thread when the Budget for Sligo has been agreed and will let contributors know how we got on. We live in hope

by Marty B Mon Jan 01, 2007 18:42

Is once bitten FF or FG? I have no fixation about the politics of former election candidates. I am merely attempting to ascertain who once bitten votes for. He is opposed to Bree and McManus and says they are not left wing. Why is he afraid to say who he votes for? Is it for FF? or FG?
He says If Joe Higgins sets up a Sligo branch of the SP he will be the first to apply for membership. Can you believe that? Why wait for Joe to set up a branch - if once bitten is genuine he would apply for membership now and help set up a branch.
As for bin charge waiver, once bitten should be aware that the bin service in Sligo was privatised five or six years ago (and that both McManus and Bree voted against the privatisation.)

by sp member Tue Jan 02, 2007 01:23

in the russian revolution or trotsky to set up a branch. You don't even have to set up a branch straight away. How about a sympatising group, which could work with the SP or the ISN and whoever it likes. Get something off the ground and work out the details later...

by Pudsy Tue Jan 02, 2007 02:13

According to tonight's Test the Nation on RTÉ, people from Sligo have the lowest IQ in Ireland. So yes, I'd imagine the Left can be revived in their neck of the woods...

:D

by once bitten Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:06

Marty B continues to duck and dive and of course name call. Classic Stalinist tactics. Smear those that disagree with you. What next, the knock on the door and away to a Gulag?
This thread was started, not to initiate a debate or impart information but to propegate the myth that Bree is somehow free of any responsibility for the wholesale introduction of rightwing policies in this area.The problem with this contention is that Bree has been part of the establishment for decades now and therefore presided over the demise of the left. We are now being asked to believe that he can turn things around. There are many in Sligo who have watched in disbelief as the neo-con agenda was pushed and instead of offering robust resistance, Bree not only faltered he actually entered into a pack with our persecutors so that he could get his hands on the Mayors chain of office. That is a matter of verifiable fact. He is not a Socialist according to any reading of his recent actions. He has stood by as government policy of privatistion was rolled out with gusto here in Sligo by a County Manager who's middle name is Attila. He takes particular delight in bringing lone parents before the courts on trumped up litter charges as he jackboots acceptance of the privatisation of the bin service. It is very sad, as I have done, to stand in Sligo Court and witness this criminalisation of the most vulnerable in our community directly because the bin servcie was privatised with no waiver as a safety net.
The fact that the servcie is privatised is no excuse for not providing a waiver. The introduction of a bin waiver is a matter entirely for Local Councillors regradless of whether the service is privatised or not. The Dept for the Environment will confirm this.
It may well be that Bree has decided to go back to his roots. If so, demonstate that by actions. Words a cheap. Publish the detail of the pact he entered with FF. Apologise and walk away from it if as I suspect there is nothing in it for the community.
The first estimates meeting is on the 14th Jan next. Put down a motion to provide a bin waiver and state publically that you will not vote for estimates that do not contain a waiver nor will you vote for an FFer for the Mayor until a waiver is in place. That would be a start.
With regard to my voting, I have never voted for FFor FG in my life.

by Kevin Doyle Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:25

Marty has also resorted to accusation as well as name calling. Questions where asked of him and he dodged the answers with the skill of an old campaigner.

Very matter of fact questions I might add, which to me where not designed to compromise him but to ascertain the strength of his socialist beliefs. I would also contend that if Bree where half the socialist he claimed to be then these questions would not need to be asked in the first place. Is Mr. Pat E a FF/FG black propagandist too?
When real questions are asked and all that results is smear, well to me, that is indicative of the kind of support ergo the kind of representative Bree is.

And appalling as it may seem, I am inclined to agree that this thread was set up to project Bree as the answer to the initial question -"Can the left be revived in Sligo?" not to generate a serious debate.
That is a machiavellian and dishonest approach to a very serious problem. Which I might add is not isolated to the North West.

Socialist thinking is being constantly attacked nationwide and under a blanket of pragmatism is becoming more diluted and blurred with the more libertarian sections of the centre right.

This thread is becoming very depressing in that Bree supporters (or Bree himself-anonymous postings-you never know?) cannot answer the questions without brushing the questioners as Lackeys, blue shirts, members of FF or worse FG etc etc.
I will not be contributing further to this thread on these grounds.

The Left is also under attack in this fair city (an oxymoron if ever I heard one) so I've equally pressing concerns much closer to home. We have our own brand of champagne socialists to deal with-Ruairi Quinn and possibly Dermot Lacey for example (no stranger to this site but at least he has the courage to post under his own name)
Besides I’m sure at some stage (given the nature of the discourse thus far) I’ll be told to butt out or mind my own business and the words like ‘pale’ and ‘jackeen’ will be dusted down and thrown into sway.

Perhaps there is some other dimension to what’s going on up there that I am not aware of but I have to say a Candidate who cannot answer what appears to me as straight questions has become totally absorbed in the political system and is therefore comfortable with the Status Quo.

Hardly the traits of a committed socialist.

by J.J. Doyle Tue Jan 02, 2007 13:32

I have read the many threads with interest. Some of the material could be described as scurrilous and offensive. Some of it is positive. It is quite clear that Councillors Bree and McManus have rattled a few cages in their time.

I particularly note one thread submitted by a guy with the pseudonym ‘once bitten’ It is obvious that he was ‘badly bitten’ by both Bree and McManus during the period when he orchestrated opposition to the Kazelin House project for young offenders in Sligo.

Far be it from me to comment on this mans record. It speaks for itself. The Kazelin issue was extensively covered in the local media, particularly the ”Sligo Champion”.

Further information on this guys activities would be available from any political party or political group or NGO in Sligo or from those involved in community or church activities or from any of the local media.

Neither Joe Higgins, nor any socialist organisation would have this guy as a member or even as a supporter.

by LeftWatch Tue Jan 02, 2007 14:08

J.J. Doyle contends that ‘once bitten’ has irritated church groups and political parties to such an extent that they have extensive files on him.

Eureka!
The North-West has its answer.

This ‘once bitten’ is obviously a socialist.

by J.J. Doyle Tue Jan 02, 2007 15:01

I did not say anyone had extensive files on ‘once bitten’ I can’t imagine anyone needing to keep files on him.

Anyone who has struggled for peoples rights and for social justice in Sligo, be they socialists, republicans, catholics, protestants, atheists – will be aware of ‘once bittens’ activities.

He could possibly be described as a National Socialist!

by Marty B Tue Jan 02, 2007 15:32

Thank you JJ Doyle for exposing “once bitten”. I should have copped on to him earlier. Socialist my Ass. KKK would be more like it.

by Doonesbury Tue Jan 02, 2007 15:36

Questions where asked of Cllr Bree and neither he nor his supporters have answered.

Instead we are treated the same old duck and cover shit flinging exercises which has served the RW so well that these so-called socialists appear to be adopting the tactic wholesale.

If anyone’s cages where rattled it would appear to be Brees protagonists judging by the hysterics of the wild accusations and so on.
I have googled 'once bitten' and got nothing only a couple of links to a well known adage.
To be honest I don’t care who he/she is. He/she has asked questions that I would like to know the answers to.

Even if he/she is a FF/FG stooge as you claim it doesn’t take away from the fact that there where questions asked of Bree and he has refused to answer. I will cut and paste them as a reminder.

Did you support service charges while a TD between 92 and 97, support the retention of refuse charges when the other charges were abolished and vote for the Tax Amnesty?

Will you put down a motion to provide a bin waiver and state publicly that you will not vote for estimates that do not contain a waiver nor will you vote for an FFer for the Mayor until a waiver is in place?

Will you publish the detail of the pact you entered with FF. Apologise and walk away from it?

Declare your independence from the Labour Party?

Affirm your effort to unseat Michael D Higgins in Galway by campaigning for your sister in-law in Galway?

These questions (or assertions) have been alluded to throughout this thread without reply.
Not just from 'once bittn' but from a number of other posters. I suppose they are all part of some plot or other to discredit Bree- just for the heck of it? Or maybe they where behind the Kennedy assasination? Dear God.

All that was required was some straight answers.
All we get is subterfuge and misdirectory accusation based on a bloody hunch.
Is it any wonder it costs €10 a week for the bins?

by Brian Harrison Tue Jan 02, 2007 15:54

It costs €10 a week in Sligo for bin collection? That is outrageous.

No wonder Pat E asked the question. Clearly the left is inactive/impotent or both over there.
I thought €2.50 was extortionate.

by Doonesbury Tue Jan 02, 2007 16:07

Well according to this link it is. Hasn’t been refuted so I'd imagine its true (hard as it is to believe)

Oh there also a few posters taking issue with Cllr Bree here as well but it seems to be a more restrained affair.
Certainly no bizarre allegations being bandied about.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/79111?region=sligo&comm...80390

by Marty B Tue Jan 02, 2007 16:36

What an incredible metamorphosis within such a short time. “Once bitten” has been transformed to ‘Doonesbury’

Comparing your activities to the KKK obviously hit a raw nerve.

by Doonesbury Tue Jan 02, 2007 16:40

Accusation and question dodging, now i am 'once bitten?'.
That is an extremely paranoid assumption.

Now about those questions, any chance of some answers?

by Marty B Tue Jan 02, 2007 17:05

Not paranoid but accurate.
Former young offenders, people seeking Corporation houses and members of the travelling community seeking accommodation will particularly know of your record in Sligo.
You have been exposed.

by Doonesbury Tue Jan 02, 2007 17:28

You sir, have clearly lost the plot. What in Gods name are you talking about?
My record in Sligo? I have no record in Sligo because I live and work in Dublin.(have done for Years)
I am not ‘once bitten’ whoever he/she is, and it has just illustrated the precariousness of your position that you would defend it with such baseless and paranoid accusation.

You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel here with that one. You seem to want to dismiss all questions by accusing the questioners of all being the same person.

Now, I’m still waiting for those answers.

by Marty B Tue Jan 02, 2007 19:14

Once bitten/Doonesbury – you have been exposed.
Far from being a Socialist – you are a right wing bigot. Bree and McManus laid into you in the media when you attempted to whip up the mob – the lumpen proletariat – in opposition to the Kazelin project for former young offenders. You stuck your head away above the parapet on that one.
You have obviously learned some lessons from that campaign. It has been noted in the intervening period that your attempts to orchestrate opposition to traveller accommodation and Corporation housing is much more sly and calculating - but just as malevolent.
You have recently discovered Indymedia and obviously believe that you can use and abuse it. I expect that Indymedia visitors will be interested to learn of your activities in Sligo.

by Doonesbury Tue Jan 02, 2007 20:24

You can say it over and over and over again but it won’t make your fantasist notions any trurer.

I am not 'once bitten' nor do I have a record in Sligo, stuck my head over any parapet. Or went toe to toe with either Bree or McManus in any forum/media outlet
.
I was simply attracted to the thread because the lead article asked an important question regarding the left in your area. I am a socialist so I was curious as to the reasons why the left has faltered. Again this was ascertained by the lead question (Can the left be revived in Sligo/Leitrim) not any intimate knowledge of the political layout in Sligo.

I state again, I live and work in Dublin. Your assertion otherwise is alarming and slightly worrying as is the ferocity of your unhinged baseless accusations which only serves to demonstrates your clear distain of critique and a contempt for the rudimentary debate process that is simply staggering.
I noticed there where questions asked of Cllr Bree and his supporters and they have been soundly beaten down with cries of Bigot and fascist. (Where have we heard this before? Critics of the Iraq war in the US are mocked as unpatriotic- shocking to see a similsr smear tactic employed here)

Again will some-one please stop insulting the collective intelligence of the Indymedia set and answer the questions.

For convenience I will cut and paste them again.

Did you support service charges while a TD between 92 and 97, support the retention of refuse charges when the other charges were abolished and vote for the Tax Amnesty?

Will you put down a motion to provide a bin waiver and state publicly that you will not vote for estimates that do not contain a waiver nor will you vote for an FFer for the Mayor until a waiver is in place?

Will you publish the detail of the pact you entered with FF. Apologise and walk away from it?

Declare your independence from the Labour Party?

Affirm your effort to unseat Michael D Higgins in Galway by campaigning for your sister in-law in Galway?

by Marty B Wed Jan 03, 2007 00:08

I feel it is timely to let readers of Indymedia know about the activities of Once bitten/Doonesbury. As readers are aware the press, and particularly the provincial press will haveparticular regard to the laws relating to libel. However the article below will give readers a feel for the activities of this guy and those who he can manipulate

The following article written by a staff reporter appeared in the “Sligo Champion” of the 11th June 2003 - see http://www.unison.ie/sligo_champion/

'Orchestrated campaign to whip up fear'

As the controversy continues over the Kazelain hostel for ex-offenders at Lyons Terrace, councillors have roundly condemned what they say has been an orchestrated campaign to whip up public fears for political gain.

Pointing their finger at what they believe has been deliberate scare-mongering of people living and working in the Finisklin area, representatives of Labour, Sinn Fein and Fine Gael have launched hard hitting attacks on certain opponents of the Kazelain project.

Claims were made that members of the public with genuine concerns about the type of former prisoner to be housed at Kazelain were being deliberately misled by individuals seeking to increase their profile in advance of next year's local elections.
A special debate on the issue was aired at Monday night's meeting of Sligo Borough Council where it was revealed that one of two councillors who serve on the management committee of Kazelain in a voluntary capacity had been subjected to a personal campaign of intimidation.

Members later unanimously passed a motion proposed by Ald. Declan Bree commending the Finisklin Housing Association for the shelter and care it provided for the homeless at its three hostels at Maryville, Shalomar and Kazelain.

Councillors were severely critical of leaflets which had been distributed in the past couple of weeks throughout the town with Ald. Bree describing them as a crude attempt to terrify people and to incite hatred.

He said that if the public were to believe the allegations made they would be under the impression that hundreds of paedophiles, rapists, murderers and sex offenders were on their way to live in Sligo and that having spent a short time in the Kazelain hostel would then get priority for housing by the Borough Council.

Alderman Sean MacManus said valid concerns of the public were being used by certain individuals with their own political agenda and that statements and leaflets bordering on social racism had been distributed.

He claimed that political profile building was going on at the expense of the fears of the people of the town.

Clr. Chris MacManus said lies, half-truths and twisting of facts had allowed a situation to arise where the fears of all the community had risen to boiling point.
"A complex social problem has been reduced to simplistic arguments by a small number of people," he said.

Ald. Jim McGarry, who along with Clr. Veronica Cawley, is a member of the management committee of Kazelain, said the hostel was under very good management and he expressed the hope that they would be allowed to continue their work in peace.
Members of Community Alliance, who are opposed to the project and who have demonstrated outside the hostel in the past, were at the meeting and a spokesperson later described the behaviour of some councillors as reprehensible.

by Vincent Carty Wed Jan 03, 2007 01:23

Marty, you have really lost the plot here.

The person being referred to in this article is Jim O Sullivan of the Community Alliance in Sligo. Are you seriously suggesting that both "once bitten" and "doonesbury" are Jim O Sullivan. If you are not then please tell us who exactly you think they are.

As for these people being O Sullivan that is utter nonsense. O Sullivan posts here on indeymedia and is consistently in the papers at local level and even in the letters pages of the national papers. I have no time for O Sullivan for many reasons, Kazelain being one, opposition to social housing being another but thats a totally different story. O Sullivan for all his faults had never been afraid to put his name to anything. Also look at the writing style of Doonesbury and Once Bitten and you will realise that these are not Jim O Sullivan.

By the way, who am I supposed to be now Marty? Am I O Sullivan too?

But what has all this got to do with whether MacManus or Bree are really socialists or not? Nothing, its just a diversion tactic by Marty to avoid the real issue being discussed here, the need for a true left wing movement in the north west. That will not be one led by either MacManus or Bree as they have shown that they are committed socialists by their support for bin charges, Mayoral pacts and Tax amnesties etc (Bree only on that last one before someone bites my head off). No, any building of a left alternative will need to also be an alternative to Bree and MacManus also.

.

by Movie buff Wed Jan 03, 2007 09:54

This thread is beginning to resemble the final scene from Spartacus. This O'Sullivan fella appears to be a thorn in the side of the erstablishment and laid back pinko hanger oners. Like to meet him. But a serious word of advise to Bree...this thread is doing you no favours. It is all very transparent. If Rabbitts boys get wind of it they will go to town on it. Go back asleep.

by Doonesbury Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:45

Thanks Vincent for clearing that up, I was thinking I was going to have post addresses, telephone numbers, bus routes even pictures to prove I was not living in Sligo and not ‘once bitten’.
This of course assumes that people know who ‘once bitten’ is or what he/she looks like, which of course they don’t, therefore the whole exercise becomes moot. (It’s a loop tactic and a rather obvious one too)
These are issues of privacy and I found it an alarming development that this site would now require such validation before your opinion was even considered.

It seems amazing that a thread posted by a concerned citizen has been hijacked by the very people who claim to be the Left in Sligo and then anonymously (an elected representative? THINK about that) used to hurl abuse at an individual who wasn’t mentioned on the post or did not offer any comment.

I have no idea who this Jim O’Sullivan is but he seems to have caused a bit of a stir down there. Well I am basing this on the reaction of Bree and his pseudonyms’. No where in this thread was this guy mentioned up till now yet Marty and co. seemed hell bent on flinging shit at him and clearly dodging the questions (again) that where asked. (Another tactic I know but its getting a bit childish now)
These questions will have to be answered at sometime at someplace. IMHO this forum is as good as anywhere.

On a side note Vincent, could I get contact details for O’Sullivan, I’d like his take on all this.

by Marty B Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:58

The final scene of Spartacus how are ya! We now have the bizarre scenario where Once bitten/Doonesbury is asking for Mr Jim O’Sullivans contact details. Why not give McManus or Bree a ring, I have no doubt but that they will assist you with your queries!

by Kevin Doyle Wed Jan 03, 2007 13:03

know I said I wouldn’t be returning to this thread but having seen the deterioration in the discourse I thought I should offer my 10 cents worth.

For the record I am clearly not oncebitten/Doonesbury/Vincent Carty or anyone else for that matter.

I am an SP supporter, live in inner city Dublin and would consider myself firmly on the left of the political spectrum.

I have made a simple enough observation on this thread, one that has held true down through the years and appears to be still true today.

You can draw your own conclusions from the vitriol smeared at Jim O Sullivan (I do not know this man nor am I a supporter) but it seems to me that if an individual is worthy of such a concerted attempt to discredit him then he must have pushed a few hot buttons along the line. There’s nothing new in this behaviour.

Individuals who are venomously attacked by the establishment represent a threat of some sort.

Individuals who are not a threat to the establishment are by and large ignored.

May I also state that this is an observation and not an endorsement or an affront to any of the individuals discussed here.

by Vincent Carty Wed Jan 03, 2007 13:24

Marty you never answered my question as to whether you are suggesting that Once Bitten or Doonesbury are Jim O Sullivan or someone else. Any chance of clarifying that for us all?

by pat c Wed Jan 03, 2007 14:19

His email add is [email protected]

He has argued his opinions quite forcefully under his own name on other threads. While opposed to water charges and privatisation, he thinks business and farmers should also get water free for commercial purposes. It has been alleged that his group opposed the building of local authority housing and a centre for young offenders.

by Doonesbury/Peter Casey Wed Jan 03, 2007 14:36 peter.a.casey at gmail dot com Harolds Cross Dublin 8

For the last time, I am not 'once/bitten' and I am certainly not jim O Sullivan.
I have provided my name above but that s the best i can offer on a public forum as to who I am.

The reason I was asking for contact details was so I could get o'sullivans side of things. Although I would consider contacting Cllr McManus to see if he is happy with this thread and his name being bandied about anonymously by Bree supporters. Also SF And Labour Party websites give the contact details of Sean McManus and Declan Bree respectively so there is no need to ask.
In any case, it is O'sullivan that has been attacked here, it stands to reason that he should be made aware of it.

Furthermore Brees position has been amply demonstrated on this thread albeit by a third party. (Well, at least I hope so, the alternative would be too pathetic to contemplate)

Vincent Carty asked you where you claiming that oncebitten was Jim O Sullivan. There is another question you have dodged along with a host of others.

Is it not plain to see that all that is required is these questions to be answered?