ALF action against Circus Vegas

by Col. Sanders Sun Jul 23, 2006 03:48

I cant help myself, if god didnt want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat? Yummy

by Gerri Sun Jul 23, 2006 04:15

Even if you agree with eating meat, surely you don't agree with abuse of animals for fun, such as routinely takes place in circuses?

If you doubt this takes place view http://www.aran.ie/ bottom left hand corner see the video of the elephant being 'trained'.

Couple of weeks back one of these circuses abandoned a caged monkey in a van for a week - luckily the monkey was rescued from a slow death. No doubt other creatures have suffered this fate.

These examples show the utter disregard circuses have for the well-being of animals. It is simply not in an elephant's nature, nor in the nature of a big cat to perform these 'tricks' as seen in circuses. Surely any caring human being with a semblance of a conscience would not wish to revel in the suffering of another sentient being for 'amusement'? I don't think its very amusing somehow.

by cool j Sun Jul 23, 2006 05:52

I eat meat too - but thats not what the ALF were getting at - Its about wanton cruelty in the name of entertainment!!!

by Ciaran Long - Alliance For Animal Rights http://www.afarireland.org Sun Jul 23, 2006 09:51 pagan_animal_liberation_front at hotmail dot com

For information on circus animal cruelty (including Irish circuses):-
http://www.captiveanimals.org/circuses/index.htm

by Sheepstealer Sun Jul 23, 2006 17:17

Well done to the Animal Liberation Front on their continuing actions and I wish you every success. If anyone spots any advertisement for a circus in their area who use animals to perform demeaning unnatural acts under threat of torture and who hold captive animals in cages under disgraceful conditions, they should tear them down to help put these circuses out of business.

Circuses who exploit animals and profit from providing a sadistic form of entertainment (which is a front for animal cruelty) should be banned in Ireland and world-wide. I am sure if both children and parents were aware of the barbaric methods used in training such animals as elephants, camels, tigers etc., into submitting to performing such idiotic unnatural acts, neither children nor adults would go to them.

Circuses should only contain human beings performing idiotic acts, magic acts, comedy or acrobatic acts/trapeze artists, they should not contain animals whose natural habitat is in the wild and not stuck in a cage and taken out to perform unnatural acts to profit the circus. Animals have no choice, human beings are free to make decisions over such acts, but in order to get animals to submit to such acts supreme torture is used to coerce them.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir! Many thanks to all involved.

Slán anois.

by impartial iosaf does a sunday papers illustration thing Mon Jul 24, 2006 00:33

Many of us worried about the ongoing abduction of bovine herds by extra-terrestial biological entities, but we rarely get the opportunity to plug the issue. http://www.cowabduction.com/

Others of us can forego solutions for the aforementioned crises at the moment & wonder what a world would be like with only Circuses that contain human beings performing idiotic acts, magic acts, comedy or acrobatic acts/trapeze artists, a world where Circuses no longer contain animals.

The Jim Rose circus comes to mind, http://www.jimrosecircus.com/ or the Peoples' Republic of China state road show. Sooner or Later we're back with the grotesque spectacle of el espaoñleto Jusepe de Ribera's middle career allegorical painting entitled bearded woman he left it to the viewer to see she was also breastfeeding. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_de_Ribera He did a lot of strange imagery and was either ahead of his time or a pervert depending on how you look at it. There are many in US Liberal circles who would like to see a return of the now "frowned upon and largely discouarged human freak shows" Here's a petition you can sign :- http://www.americancivilrightsreview.com/Freak%20Show/f....html ¿ why stop just at ripping down circus show advertising and introducing animals into the wild to breed feral eco-disaster (like mink & kangaroos) when you can help the "working person" too?

At end I honestly am not convinced that all animal training methods are based on torture or cohersion of the animal. In fact our most "trained" animals demonstrate the lack of torture - guide dogs, rescue dogs, bloody magnificent filley geldings at dawn galloping across the fields, or greater simians actively involved in space-exploration or the war on EBE cattle rustlers. A war we must win. At all costs. Simply coz anyone who like me (and at least two Irish MEP's) who has eaten a mad cow burger will not soon forget the experience. Stays with you. Lingers in your bone marrow, lurking. ly and silent its opportune moment to spring like an Alien out of your stomach. & thats just the first stage.
I hope you take my opinions on board.

sign another petition extend your involvement in the movement :-
http://www.greatapeproject.org/declaration.php

This all terrain EBE abduction protection armour includes camouflage, tin foil & all weather waterproofing. Access/Exit patches for shitting & breeding.

is a bearded woman breastfeeding of suitable cultural entertainment value to prompt an end to animal Circus acts?

by Gloria Mon Jul 24, 2006 01:38

Iosaf

you appear to be making light of the fact that some people oppose circuses on the grounds of animal cruelty.

Animals such as guide dogs, rescue dogs and even performing dogs are not usually trained using tortuous methods. This is because dogs are Domesticated Animals. It has taken thousands of years for canines to be bred into the different breeds that exist today, from the wolf. Of course not all methods of training animals involve torture, the dog is a good example of this as most dogs have an inbuilt desire to please whatever being they consider top in the hierarchy, usually their owner or trainer.

However as I am sure most people can grasp, there is quite a difference between wild animals (such as elephants, sea lions, lions and tigers) and domesticated animals such as dogs. The difference does not lie in how they were raised but in their DNA. Not only is the act of forcing wild animals to perform acts cruel in the methods used to train them, it is also a matter of public safety. There are many examples of wild animals 'fighting back'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/1869493.stm

http://www.kidzworld.com/site/p3896.htm

If you accept the theory of evolution then you accept that humans are closely related to primates and we share alot of DNA. If these creatures are so similar to us, surely they should be afforded some protection against cruelty on the basis that they can feel the affects of cruelty in a similar manner to humans??

by Sheepstealer Mon Jul 24, 2006 01:44

Iosaf The Impartial,

Animal rights is not a laughing matter, this is an extremely serious issue. Circus animals are held captive in appalling conditions and suffer gruelling and barbaric training methods - there is no comparison between rescue dogs, guide dog training (which I know a great deal about as family member is involved with guide dog training) and circus animal training. You cannot compare the training of guide dogs and rescue dogs as being the same as circus trained animals, they certainly are not, guide dogs, rescue dogs, are treated very well and are not confined to cages for hours on end and they are not under threat of a whip every fuckin day and they don't have to stand in ridiculous poses and carry out acts in view of someone swinging a whip every fuckin day of the week for the rest of their life!!

You obviously know absolutely nothing about the training of circus animals when you say you're not convinced they undergo cruel treatment. Did you ever see coverage of the training methods used and the cages they are kept in and the tiny bit of space they have. I do have knowledge of the suffering of these animals in being trained for circus acts. Do you think they want to carry out these idiotic acts that go against their very nature? How the hell do you get elephants and tigers etc., to perform repetitive acts every night, do you not see the ring master stand over these animals with a whip in order for them to obey his commands (in training they learn very well what the whip means (torture), the animal's spirit has to be broken down in training and torturous methods are used to achieve this).

I would love if we had circuses in Ireland today who had just human beings carrying out idiotic acts, clowns (MEPs welcome to apply), trapeze artists/acrobats, magicians, stuntmen/stuntwomen, I've no problem at all with that. Human beings have choices in their circus careers - circus animals certainly do not! There has being many a report of a screaming elephant who broke away and charged down a street in a desperate attempt to escape the circus imprisonment!!!

People like you should be stuck in a circus cage for a week and taken out every night for a few minutes to perform ridiculous poses and demeaning acts under the threat of a whip and see how you fuckin like it!!

Bíodh ciall agat le do thoil!!!

Slán anois.

by Fiery S Mon Jul 24, 2006 03:49

I was just saying to someone recently that circuses had gotten so boring since I was a kid (brought little brother to see one). All the wonderful and well-trained animals were gone, leaving the tent merely a glorified gymnasium.
Our children have a right to see the animals of the world and marve as they perform to the applause of the audience. Animals are the stars of the circus - don't take that away from them.

by Gloria Mon Jul 24, 2006 04:33

I beg to differ with you on several points Fiery S.

You say these animals are 'wonderful and well-trained'. What is 'wonderful' about using tortuous methods to force wild animals to repeat the same tricks, day after day, night after night? If you are in any doubt about these methods, please refer to the links above. Would you not rather bring your younger brother to see people performing of their own free will, often very skilled and complex acts? Are you blind to the obvious fact that a big cat does not voluntarily jump through a hoop and perform other such ridiculous stunts, unless it is forced to do so, under threat of further torture?

If you are concerned about your younger brothers rights and well-being I strongly suggest you stay away from circuses. As can be seen from the links below, it is not unknown for the unfortunate animals forced to perform to attack their trainer/torturers or indeed members of the audience.

Regarding your assertion 'Our children have a right to see the animals of the world and marve as they perform to the applause of the audience. Animals are the stars of the circus - don't take that away from them' - I would think that our children have the right to be brought up in a just society and not be forced to witness acts of torture causing them to be insensitive to suffering, both animal and human.

Incidentally, if you wish for children to 'see the animals of the world' you should subscribe to Sky and get National Geographic. That would be slightly more educational seeing as the animals are usually in their natural habitat and not doing tricks and stunts, completely alien to them, under threat of torture. I would not wish for any child of mine to witness such inhumane, cruel and barbarous acts as take place in a circus containing wild animals and would question the mentality of anyone who does.

http://bigcatnews.blogspot.com/2006/07/circus-tiger-mau....html

http://www.da4a.org/circus.htm

by Sheepstealer Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:07

Fiery S,

Maybe, if your children were aware of the cruelty these animals have to endure in training and the miserable existence they have trapped in cages, they wouldn't get any enjoyment out of watching them under threat of a whip performing demeaning idiotic acts for the sadistic amusement of the circus audience. I doubt your children would approve of their Mum or Dad parting with his/her money to finance animal cruelty.

Animals such as elephants, tigers, camels belong in their natural habitat in the wild and there is great amusement and fun and education to be gained from watching them in their natural environment. Tune in to National Geographic where your children and your ignorant self can learn far more about the behaviours and skill of these animals and be better entertained. Your children will learn feck all about these wild animals in a circus tent or stuck in a feckin cage, indeed, they may be in great danger of being mauled by an aggressive tiger or trampled on by a desperate elephant in their attempt to flee the miserable life human beings have sentenced them to.
Only humans should perform these idiotic acts in circuses, animals should never have been part of it.

Maybe, you should apply to the circus yourself and be trained up for these animal acts yourself since your so fond of them and endure the same gruesome training and live in a cage for most of your life with a few minutes freedom to perform the same repetitive acts (under threat of whip) every night and then be sent back to your cage, sure, we'd really find out a lot about human behaviour and your ignorant self in such a circus arena.

Bíodh ciall agat le do thoil!

Slán go fóill

by cruelty for a buck Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:04

just found this on the aran website about the investigation into irish circuses which is shocking

http://www.ad-international.org/admin/downloads/ireland...g.pdf

by jarjar Mon Jul 24, 2006 18:25

"the animals are the stars of the circus, don't take that away from them"

What, are you simple? I am so sure a (wild) lion can fully appreciate being dragged up in concentration camp conditions and being beaten into performing like a wind-up toy because it knows at the end of it all it has a great career oppurtunity.

Don't take the stardom away from the animals, like all the hollywood supernovas that have fizzled out over the years, they might end up sinking into depression, drinking and doing drugs, never to regain their once envious status.

by iosaf Mon Jul 24, 2006 20:00

(1) I've consistently brought readers' attention to the project to extend to & create for the greater simians 3 universally binding legal rights - http://www.greatapeproject.org/ The Spanish government is on side there.

(2) I grew up with experience of trained & training animals, the circus, the zoo and even worked as youngster as volunteer in various ISPCA installations including their centre on the Dublin canal. I don't deny the existence of cruelty to animals, or of poor conditions for some animals in captivity, but I don't nor have I ever agreed with the actions of "ALF ireland"...... & why :-

(3) Exotic animals were much more plentiful about twenty years ago, and legislation regarding them differed on both sides of the Irish border. This resulted in smuggling of exotic animals including big cats and birds from the north to the south. I am fully aware of the shocking conditions one tiger was found in Ireland in the 80's. I am also aware that this matter dealt with my the gardai and animal welfare associations saw social activists deliberately leave the nascent "ALF Ireland" out of the loop. Better to leave them doing their weekend stall with photos of vivisection.

(4) By love of circus grew from seeing both Moscow and China state circuses (which are both human) and later in life in the 90's respect for circus arts influenced greatly some of my social theories & indeed protest methodologies. I'm proud of writing references over the years for young people to pursue courses of circus art studies at Circus Space London http://www.thecircusspace.co.uk/ and am very proud of one friend who graduated to be part of the Cirque du Soleil team http://www.cirquedusoleil.com/CirqueDuSoleil/es/default.htm

(5) A fully grown Tiger or Lion can not be coherced by a whip. Their paws alone weigh close to half the weight of a mature human being. Their claws when extended lacerate deeply enough to puncture the rib cage of a human being and cause death. A blow from a mature lion, lioness, tiger or tigress using erxtended claws will kill a human being. More often than not the presence of the whip in the ring is for the human spectators' benefit. Big cats do not perform or obey a human they follow the lead of an individual accepted in their group as a quasi-alpha. The crack of a whip is a sound which signals and amuses the tittering kinds who thing S&M belongs in the bedroom of the audience.

(6) Of the cliched poses adopted by animals in the Circus -none are "un-natural". In contrast the poses and asana and sundry other feats accomplished by human circus performers and contorsionists push the boundaries of what is considered "natural".

(7) ALF or its fellow travellers choose soft targets perhaps because they can find no harder ones - or perhaps because sentimentality and anthromorphology clouds their judgement. There is nothing idyllic about life in the wild for any performance animal. The best they may be freed to is a safari park.
The Lion in the wild lives a life of being a star within a closely defined group - and ends that life toothless, starving, alone more often than not eaten by hyena. ALF in Ireland has been responsible for the release of alien species (as in species outside of our natural ecosystem such as mink) in the past with devastating consequences.

(8) Some books might be worth reading ( or at least reading the plot summaries on wikipedia) :-

* (For a perspective on animal training which shows the training of big cats to my mind at least as having much in common with the training of dogs and horses I witnessed as a kid)
"The Life of Pi" is a wonderful title of fiction by Canadian Yann Martel [" protagonist Piscine Molitor Patel, an Indian boy from Pondicherry, explores the issues of religion and spirituality from an early age and survives 227 days shipwrecked in the Pacific Ocean"..............in the company of a Benghali Tiger who doesn't eat him..........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_of_Pi

* (For a perspective on human only circus, so that we appreciate the distance we have come since the Freak shows of pre-TV era, as indeed animal welfare has come a long way since the travelling bear baiting circus of those times. This title "Geek Love" is a novel by Katherine Dunn 1983 and "the story of a traveling circus run by Aloysius "Al" Binewski and his wife, "Crystal" Lil. When Al's circus begins to fail, the couple devises an idea to breed their own freak show, using various drugs and radioactive material to alter the genes of their children.".....................http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Love

Because both human rights and animal welfare have improved greatly, since the admonishment carved in stone at the Stephen's Green end of Dublin's Dawson Street on the water trough :-
be kind to your animals . Today's circus performers study gravity, objects in motion, stretch their bodies to the peak condition of ballet dancers, and are in the vanguard of a new art performance form which is socially egalitarian and educational. If ALF and their fellow travellers "followed through" on attacking travelling circus and those workers whose livelihoods rely for the moment on that tradition by encouraging practical options - they would merit more attention.
Perhaps there are no vivisection plants in Ireland? Perhaps all the tigers have been rounded up by the Gardaí? Perhaps there are other ways of making the point on human creulty and the cruelty to animals which derives from that .

i remain impartial
http://www.greatapeproject.org/

by Gloria Mon Jul 24, 2006 23:05

Iosaf - you say you are impartial but you advocate rights for great apes?

You say you have a wide range of experiences with animals, including the circus, zoo and ISPCA. If this is the case you probably have more knowledge about animals in general than most people.

You say that you believe the methods used to train tigers and lions are similar to those used for dog training. Sorry, but the majority of information that I have read online points to the inescapable conclusion that extremely cruel methods are used in the training of these animals, especially big cats and elephants.

In relation to big cats where you say the methods used are similar to those used with dogs, electric shock devices are used as well as other methods, there is a huge amount of information that supports this. With elephants, methods using bullhooks, whips, chains beatings are employed. In relation to tigers/lions, these animals are natural predators who as you say yourself, can kill people with a swipe of the paw. It stands to reason that these animals would not perform, on demand unless they were under threat of torture in most cases. This is what the information says.

I don't know enough about what the ALF have or haven't done in Ireland to have a position on them, and this posting is not in support of them as such. I just don't agree with needless cruelty and the miseducation of children which animal containing circuses seems to perpetuate.

You say you are impartial yet you also say you have a love of circuses, which grew from the Moscow and Chinese state circuses. I don't think you can compare the spectacular shows put on by both of these to the tacky and sorry spectacle put on by the likes of Duffy's and Vegas circuses.

I would have to disagree with you regarding the poses adopted by animals as well as the quality of lives led by most circus animals. It seems profoundly unnatural for lions, tiger, elephants etc to be traveling around countries in small cages and then brought out to perform. You state that the whip is just for show. I agree that a whip alone is not enough to coerce a lion into performing a trick, much more sinister methods are used behind closed doors when the animals are not on show.

Given the choice I think most of these animals would rather be in a completely wild environment or preferably in a good quality zoo where they can exercise at least some of their natural behaviours. Circus animals, apart from cruelty in training are prevented from behaving the way they are designed to. There is nothing 'sentimental' about wishing for an end to the pathetic and unnatural lives lived by alot of these animals as you seem to think is the motivation behind some activists.

Will certainly have a better look at the link u posted regarding humane and effective training of Bengal tigers, if only this was the norm. Any research I have done seems to support the conclusions drawn by animal rights groups, that training of tigers/lions for circuses employs cruel methods.

by iosaf formerly impartial. Tue Jul 25, 2006 00:36

The ALF attacked a circus by removing one of the main sources of its local and specific publicity, the traditional en route market. I presume this action was to financially effect the circus owners & management, because of now alledged cruelty on the part of the staff or trainers of captive animals. Captive animals who rely on the profits of the Circus for their fodder, good conditions and bedding. The workers that circus, we hope are protected as best as a little over one and half century's struggle for workers rights can guarantee. If they go without pay due to the income cut by the ALF by destroying advertising - they may hope on a variety of State benefits and legal representational groups. The animals perhaps go hungry? Or are the collateral of the Circus group? a difficult to liquidate asset I might suggest. Not much of a market for a 7 year old 3 tonne Elephant.
(1) Has the ALF conclusively proven that animal trainers associated with this business and these workers are guilty of cruelty?
(2) In place of siumply removing the advertising did ALF make any attempt to publicise alternative forms of Circus, highlight issues of animal cruelty & educate the public as to its prevalence and true place - mostly (like violence on women and children - the household ?
(3) do the ALF when they're not playing idiot quasi terrorists - work in animal welfare? assist the community and public to solve the problem? I mean in something more "on topic" than adopting kittens or rescuing puppies. I mean where do we put the lions? do we put them down??

You're right Gloria - i'm not impartial.

There are many ways of promoting animal welfare, rights for simians, vegetarianism & all of it.
The ALF is not a recommendable option.

by Ciaran Long - Alliance For Animal Rights - www.afarireland.org Tue Jul 25, 2006 00:54 pagan_animal_liberation_front at hotmail dot com

"ALF in Ireland has been responsible for the release of alien species (as in species outside of our natural ecosystem such as mink) in the past with devastating consequences."

Absolute garbage!!!!
Please tell me, Iosaf, apart from Mink, what other alien species are the Animal Liberation Front in Ireland responsible for releasing with devastating consequences? And what were the devastating consequences caused by mink?
Mink have been a resident of our countryside long before there were any liberations. Most having escaped themselves from fur farms themselves or having been released by fur farmers because it was the cheapest method of getting rid of them when they closed their farms down. Mink were also a favourite victim of hunters long before the ALF ever existed. Media hype mostly stirred up by hunters, shooters and anglers has reported marauding gangs of vicious blood thirsty mink taking down herds of cows, flocks of sheep, having devastating effects on our wildlife, and attacking children and pets. Funny really when mink are solitary animals that mainly live on rats and rabbits.

by Ciaran Long - Alliance For Animal Rights - www.afarireland.org Tue Jul 25, 2006 01:09 pagan_animal_liberation_front at hotmail dot com

(1) Has the ALF conclusively proven that animal trainers associated with this business and these workers are guilty of cruelty?

A circus owner was seen taken his anger out on one of the elephants a couple of years ago shortly after threatening people with their lives. If this is the sort of action that is taken because the cops were called after activists were badly beaten and hospitalised just for passing out anti-circus leaflets, I can only imagine what goes on behind closed doors.
Having spoken to ex-circus workers in the past, I realise that it's not only the animals that are badly treated, but the workers too.

by Gloria Tue Jul 25, 2006 03:19

Again, I know next to nothing about ALF activities in Ireland. I believe they have bombed places and stolen a corpse in the UK - both actions I disagree with.

Based on documentaries I have seen on tv, personally witnessing circus acts as a child and the obvious reluctance on the part of the big cats to jump through hoops of fire and research using a wide variety of sources on the internet, I believe it is an inescapable conclusion that circuses are places of cruelty for most of the animals contained therein.

Top of the list are elephants, big cats and primates. The first two I believe it to be a very difficult feat to train without torture, threat and pain, due to the nature of the animal. Primates are of course possible to train using not so cruel methods, however I remember a documentary a number of years back where Mary Chipperfield was covertly filmed beating an infant chimpanzee - hardly necessary or conducive to training. I suppose she just lost patience with the creature and beat it because she could. In fact, numerous sadistic practices and instances of violence against the animals in the care of the circus were filmed by that undercover person. Does this constitute proof enough??

I don't think there is anything 'alleged' about the cruel nature of the treatment of these animals - really it has been shown, time and time again. You express concern about the livelihoods of the workers, owners and management of circuses as they continue to be financially affected by campaigns against them as well as the general public realizing the sickening cruelty behind these 'acts'. Of course it is a matter of concern, but circuses are not just about cruelty to wild animals, they also have clowns, acrobats, trapeze artists so perhaps they should think of diversifying - there is a market for it, this is shown by the Chinese State circus and the Russian counterpart that you mentioned earlier.

Circus workers rights are a separate issue and not a cause to be furthered through abuse of animals. Its not like the amount of freedom for cruelty to animals is commensurate with the level of workers rights!!

Again, I can't speak for or about the ALF, but know that Irish animal welfare/rights organizations often have a wide range of issues that they focus on - anti vivisection, vegetarianism, veganism, anti hunting, coursing, to name but a few. I know that many of these organizations publicize and promote cruelty free lifestyle alternatives including focussing on alternatives to circuses containing wild animals. You are probably right about the household being a prime place for cruelty to animals, more often through ignorance and neglect than anything deliberate but I would still think these animals have a preferable situation to many circus animals. The DSPCA educate people on these issues and produce a child friendly magazine for this purpose.

Regarding what to do with the 'surplus' animals if circuses were to close down, well as I am sure you are aware, a baby monkey was left to starve in a cage in filthy conditions in a van by circus personnel - this happened very recently. The animal in question was taken to the Monkey Sanctuary in Wicklow where it is said to be making good progress. There are places around Europe that rescue animals unfortunate enough to have been trained cruelly by circuses and wild animals who were bought from unscrupulous dealers by morons who thought they could keep them. It wouldn't be necessary to put them all down.

I think even a zoo is a preferable place for either an elephant or big cat to a circus.

You seem to have a big problem with the ALF and because they are currently campaigning against circuses, with this campaign. Methods used by the ALF to further their aims have certainly been dubious in the past but I don't see anything unworthy about the wish to end this particular type of torment.

by Ciaran Long - Alliance For Animal Rights - www.afarireland.org Tue Jul 25, 2006 09:20 pagan_animal_liberation_front at hotmail dot com

Gloria, nobody was ever charged with the theft of Gladys Hammond's body. The only charges were for blackmailing the Halls, the family that owned the Newchurch Guinepig farm.

by The Wise Man Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:23

Although the word 'terrorists' is always used by people and industry supporting animal cruelty but in saying that even animal abusers have a right to protest too. I invite you to please visit

http://www.animalliberationfront.com

Next i ask that you please watch the story and rescue of britches it shows the Animal Liberation Front in action doing what these amazing people do best saving lives and highlighting the terrible cruelty hidden behind closed off doors, its only about 10 minutes long and dont worry it will play on the screen no technical stuff on your behalf, please do watch it for everyone reading this because it will break your heart.

http://www.animalliberationfront.com

by Sheepstealer Tue Jul 25, 2006 14:01

I have the utmost respect for the Animal Liberation Front and this documentary about "Britches" the monkey, clearly shows what their actions can achieve and I greatly admire them. Any action that the Animal Liberation Front carries out benefits the animals and is morally right. They do not carry out actions against people who are not involved in animal cruelty, they strictly target those that hold captive animals in order to kill them for their fur, drug research etc., for material gain, or in the case of this university to carry out evil and barbaric experiments like that unnecessary psychological experiment carried out on "Britches". Well done to all that was involved in the action.

No experiment that involves animal cruelty is justified - actions against those that support animal cruelty are justified.

Well done ALF.

by Ciaran Long - Alliance For Animal Rights - www.afarireland.org Tue Jul 25, 2006 18:53 pagan_animal_liberation_front at hotmail dot com

Personally I feel that PETA are sadly now an Animal Welfare organisation, who give awards for humane rat traps and don't have a no-kill policy. They'd prefer to put money into offices than build accommodation for animals (hense they'd rather put dogs down than save them - Pretty much the same as the ISPCA).
But Ingrid Newkirk's book "Free The Animals" is well worth a read. It tells the full story of Britches (The Baby Monkey Who Couldn't See). Amazing story.

by Gloria Tue Jul 25, 2006 22:52

Once a group is taking a step in the right direction I think they are to be commended. Once a group are taking actions that count towards lessening animal suffering even if we don't think they are going far enough, they should be commended.

We should recognize that different groups such as the ISPCA, AFAR, PETA, CWF, ARAN etc have more in common than not and reserve our criticism for those that promote, support, make money from and engage in needless animal cruelty.

The old saying holds true - United we stand, divided we fall.

by dicey reilly Tue Jul 25, 2006 22:58

& discourage people from engaging in that type of terrorist thing. How do concerned parents to know their kids are just frolicking around with whips and chains ARAN style, or buck naked PETA style or shovelling dog shite down the local pound ISPCA style all "harmless full"???

When in fact the AFL might have infiltrated the ISPCA, AFAR, PETA, CWF, ARAN etc and be using their meetings as cover - for terrorist training, setting up of covert cells, sleeper agents, recruiting money & no other end of other criminal activity?

by Sheepstealer Tue Jul 25, 2006 23:38

"When in fact the AFL might have infiltrated the ISPCA, AFAR, PETA, CWF, ARAN etc and be using their meetings as cover - for terrorist training, setting up of covert cells, sleeper agents, recruiting money & no other end of other criminal activity?"

The Animal Liberation Front are an organisation that rescues animals covertly and frees them from cruel, torturous experiments carried out in laboratories and animals who are bred for their fur or their flesh and who are under threat of death. I will always defend them, they are an organisation to be admired for their animal rescue activities. Many an animal would be dead and still suffering today only for their actions.

The ALF are not criminals. They are animal rescuers who make a difference, how dare you call them criminals, the only criminals are those that carry out gruesome experiments on these unfortunate animals - who all live a life of pain and misery confined in laboratories. These animals are all killed when the researchers have finished with the live stage of the experiment, as the post mortem stage is the most important stage to these researchers so they can obtain their results from their sick experiments. How can you say the ALF are criminals when they rescue such animals from the pain and certain death of these experiments?

by Gloria Wed Jul 26, 2006 01:03

could you be specific when you refer to ALF members as having engaged in 'terrorist training, setting up of covert cells, sleeper agents, recruiting money & no other end of other criminal activity'. Has any of these activities occurred in Ireland?

are you suggesting that members of AFAR, ISPCA, ARAN, PETA, CWF are 'terrorists'?

do you have concerns that children volunteering to help out at the ISPCA may be recruited for terrorist activity??

Perhaps you have impute a liberal meaning to the word 'terrorist' .

Or perhaps you are uncomfortable with the notion that many people who disagree with animal cruelty, to varying degrees.

Do you have any actual opinions to contribute on the current state of animal welfare in Ireland? It is unclear why you appear to be hostile and derisory towards different animal welfare/rights groups, perhaps you should enlighten us as to what you you really mean, instead of speculating that due to a danger of terrorist infiltration, animal rights/welfare groups should be regarded with suspicion.

You didn't include CatsAid...these are a group of ladies who as I am sure you have worked out by the name, have cats as their primary source of concern. Should we avoid them too?

by Correstion Wed Jul 26, 2006 02:54

I know you are tying to make a point but the majority of the organisations you mentioned are welfare. The ALF are Animal RIghts.

by mick the man - inla Fri Jul 13, 2007 22:19

you fuckin clowns ,the circus is the oldest form of entertainment in the world bringin clean fun to all and creating jobs for all kinds of artists ,u animal lovers just love fuckin sheep.get a life n wise up!!!!!

by Huge Fri Jul 13, 2007 23:18

The original ALF loved cats too.

ALF - the original Alien Life Form