US transported Apache Helicopters to Israel through Shannon

by rooster Sun Jun 11, 2006 14:04

Spoken like a true patriot, god bless you and your troops and don't worry about the 12 months as theres plenty of OSD in theatre.

by Seán Ryan Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:15

Howdy A10. I see that you are now calling a spade a manually powerd earth inverting horticultural impliment :O)

Call it what you will, the fact remains that geodesics are the correct terminology.

Sergeant might indeed be out there, but in 'here' he's only risking my sense of humour, and as cutting as it is, it's rarely fatal.

Anyway, tis a lovely Sunday morning and it's good to see you haven't faded into obscurity. So enough of all these distractions. We facilitated the sale of arms and we need to acknowledge this, apologise for it, and never do it again. After we arrest, try and convict any and all government collaborators of course.

by A10 Sun Jun 11, 2006 02:57

people like Sgt -US Army.
at least he is out there risking all...Editors Note: Abuse and unsubstantiated claims edited out here.

BTW Seanie,
It is called a great circle route,Not a Geodisc which is a geometric shape
More personal abuse edited out here. Future trolling on this thread is likely to lead to the entire comment being hidden.

by Seán Ryan Sat Jun 10, 2006 13:21

R. Isible took the words outta my mouth.

Maybe Mike Tyson should run for president. The quote from him does seem somewhat representative of the Neanderthal element.

Anyway sergeant you might find that some (those who weren't crippled by sanctions, fear or bullshit, etc.) would not allow you or any other turd like you to take a swipe at them. I support non-violence, this does not mean that I wouldn't put you sitting on your fat arse in a daze.

Have a nice day!! (And would you like fries with that).

by R. Isible Fri Jun 09, 2006 22:13

You jokers should be glad there is a place for our planes to land in Shannon while carrying equipment to Southwest Asia.
You're not just late on commenting on the substantive issue which is that once again, Indymedia.ie published information about the illegal transit of US munitions through Shannon, but you're also missing the latest news: World Airways, the major US troop carrier has pulled out of Shannon, so all the lickspittles that destroyed Ireland's good international name and jeopardised our neutrality so that they could buy a new plasma screen TV will now have to pawn it.

I don't think the Irish citizens would feel quite so "neutral" if there was a massive terror attack that originated from some radical jihadist.
The most massive terror attack from radical jihadists has been the one perpetrated by loony yanks on the innocent Iraqi people under the pretext that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. As a result of Irish complicity with the illegal, dishonourable and immoral actions taken by you and your fellow forelock tuggers in the armed forces Ireland now faces a seriously increased threat from any Islamic nutters. Thanks a fucking bunch dude.

It's easy to complain and whine about everything when someone else is doing the dirty work!
It'd be even easier for you to stay at home and stick to square bashing instead of bashing innocent childrens' brains out of their heads so that your country can prop up middle eastern dictatorships (how d'ya like those Saudis and Yemenis then?) and spreading despotism and tyranny so that your kids can rot on an army base. Nice one. Stay home and stay the fuck out of Ireland.

by Sergeant - U.S. Army Fri Jun 09, 2006 21:11

I guess I'm a little late to chime in on the discussion of cargo planes landing in Shannon while carrying Apache helicopters. Well, I'm not a military helicopter but I've landed in Shannon while en route to deploy to the Iraqi theater of combat. Nice airport and the country looked beautiful as we flew over it. Anyway, I certainly hope this blog is not indicative of the Irish people.

Most of the people posting comments here seem like a bunch of spineless, hair splitting, spoiled kids complaining about the direction of the wind! I know the unemployment rate is low in Ireland so there must be some other reason for all of the free time you have to complain. Maybe the government hands out subsidies to live on.

You jokers should be glad there is a place for our planes to land in Shannon while carrying equipment to Southwest Asia. I don't think the Irish citizens would feel quite so "neutral" if there was a massive terror attack that originated from some radical jihadist. It's easy to complain and whine about everything when someone else is doing the dirty work! I gaurantee things would not be so peaceful there if the Americans and allied forces were'nt taking the fight to the enemy right now. Do you think radical islam has some affection for the Irish people because of your so called "neutrality"? Hell, no! Hopefully you all won't have to find out the hard way like a number of other European countries have. Good thing you have Britain right next door to tie your shoes for you.

Just remember crazy Mike Tyson's saying, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth!"

by Paddy Mon Apr 17, 2006 17:56

Didnt see nuthin materialise in the media about the Russian helicopters through Shannon.

Are you boys imagining all this ?

by Seán Ryan Sat Apr 15, 2006 14:55

Cost is the major factor. The cheapest route is the shortest route, fair enough factor in enough fuel for emergencies etc. Irregardless as to what way you slant the mathematics of this, it remains clear that if one is flying to Iceland from the US that one should approach Iceland and establish that Iceland remains closer than Ireland for the duration of the flight, once it initially becomes apparent that Iceland is closer than Ireland.

Since you like geodesics and all that lovely stuff, lets apply your logic to landing. You'll agree that landing is an important feature of flying and you might agree with me when I say that all actions with regard to safety in aeronautics ultimately exist to facilitate a safe landing at the end of a flight.

So you've decided to land a plane. Using that keen sense of logic you have, you point the plane at your destination. Knowing about gravity and wind and in general about aeronautics you decide that your approach cannot be a straight line. A 'geodesic' that's the job. This simple curve describes your flight path and allows for the factors mentioned. However being as safety conscious as you are you must factor in for an emergency landing elsewhere. So now you must calculate a new geodesic that no longer terminates on the runway that initially took your fancy.

Hmmmmmm.

Now onto your condemnation of our Government for facilitating the sale of the other helicopters by the Russians.

I totally agree. I wholeheartedly condemn this act by our Government. I don't care who the other players are, I don't want to be in the game.

It strikes me as incredible that our government could have been so resolute about decomissioning in the North but at the same time facilitate arming the rest of the planet and wholesale slaughter.

by A10 Sat Apr 15, 2006 14:03

Sean,you obvisouly like calling a spade a manually powerd earth inverting horticultural impliment.And are a great fan of strawman arguements
As a pilot with eight plus experiance what you call a Geodisc with alot of mathemathical theory is simply a great circle route.Fine if you are sitting in a math class somehere.Different story when things like weather conditions,fuel and payload,distance to destination airport and alternative airport,what type of technical problem the aircraft had etc are taken into account.In other words real world situation rather than intellectual theorising.
As for not shipping helicoprters by ship.Simple,they are somwhat delicate and expensive,and their avionics are not too happy with salt water and damp conditions.So you fly them where they are most best employed and needed.[IE blowing the shit up out off Hezbollah terrorist bases.]
As for your other strawman arguement as to the Apaches capabilities,suggest you look up Janes defence review on line.You could learn alot there and make your arguements sound more creditable.

Ahh well sure it is irrevelant now the Russkies have moved their gunships thru now as well to Venezeula,to support a genuine leftist nutter dictator
So I guess we will see plenty of moans about how much DU a Hind D gunship can fire out and plenty of protests outside the Volga Dniper offices in Shannon by PANA and co???
Fairs fair!If you all claim to be only anti war and not anti American.Now's the time for the Irish anti war movement to prove their "neutrality"on this issue.But I somhow doubt it will happen.
Dont wexpect the muppet show in the Dail to do much either apart from making soothing noises to soothe the Irish sheeple as well.Sure we must be neutral.So make a token enquiry as well on this.

by anon Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:58

10:05 Saturday April 15th 2006 examiner

The Government is accused of being spineless for allowing Russia to use Shannon Airport to export military helicopters, by the Peace and Neutrality Alliance.

It is being reported today that a Russian plane landed at Shannon in February with a cargo of Russian-made MI-17 helicopters bound for Venezuela.

A Government statement said that aircraft making technical stops do not need authorisation.

But Edward Horgan of the Peace and Neutrality Alliance says the Government should be held accountable for its actions: "International law, the United Nations Charter, is being grossly breached. I think the Irish government is spineless - it has lied repeatedly - and I would also think that the Irish people has not done nearly enough to hold their government to account."

by Paddy Fri Apr 14, 2006 22:51

Please Conor,

As you are the one who seems to have introduced this story to this board can you describe how the Apaches where witnessed to be present in the first place. i.e. on the 27/ 28 Feb. ? The Apaches that the Govt has admitted to.... how were they seen?

I'm not being funny, I dont read the Indo, and I'd like to know.

by Paddy Fri Apr 14, 2006 18:58

Can anybody say how the Indo reporter saw the Apaches inside the extraordinarily large carrier aircraft ?

by Paddy Fri Apr 14, 2006 16:47

anon

I disagree about the increased risk factor but its not important.

Do you know how the reporter managed to see the apaches inside the extraordinarily large plane?

by anon Fri Apr 14, 2006 15:39

Cos they were nothing to do with Bush and no risk to him. It was merely a coincidence that got confused and now clarified.

by Paddy Fri Apr 14, 2006 15:26

I nearly have it, So ,

It is believed that as many as nine Apaches have been transported through Shannon since the dawning of time.

It is known that 3 Apaches went through on the 28 , cos the Indo reporter eye witnessed them , then had it confirmed by the Dept of Transport via serial numbers, that it is a fact that these 3 apaches were present on the 28.

A question:

How did the reporter see them?

A query :

Why would the Americans jeopardise the safe passage of Bush by having the Apaches illegally here just before his arrival?

by anon Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:34

On February 27, an Anotov 124, the largest mass-produced cargo plane in the world, landed at Shannon airport.

The plane, registration number RA 82042, was carrying three Boeing AH-64 attack aircraft, which had been loaded at Williams Gateway Airport in Phoenix, Arizona on February 25. It took off for Israel on February 28.

by Paddy Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:29

This is what A10 said :

Also as to why the Gardai gaurded the plane[s],wasnt GW dropping in that night as well?

Anon ,

Believe me I am not trying to confuse the issue. I want to know if anybody in the house knows what date the Apaches went through.

The article you just posted does not say when , specifically the Apaches were here. A10 is implying it was the same night as Bush going out to Pakistan i.e. Feb 28/Mar1.
Can this be substantiated ?

Or is it the case that we dont know specifically what date it was, and all we know is that one confirmed report has been accepted by the government that:

"sometime in February some apaches had to be diverted through Ireland from Iceland due to technical difficulties."

by anon Fri Apr 14, 2006 04:24

stop confusing the situation Paddy

"author by Conor Creganpublication date Tue Feb 28, 2006 18:44Report this post to the editors

Earlier today two massive Russian built Antonov 124:000 cargo planes landed at Shannon Airport offloading two black jeeps and a black limousine. These planes are a regular visitor to Shannon with on unconfirmed report that nine Black Hawk Helicoptors have been transported through Shannon on one of these planes.

Unlike Saturday An Gardai Siochana will be well manned at Shannon Airport tonight as George W Bush lands at Shannon. This security overkill is testimony to the fact that An Gardai Siochana have fumbled the ball in the past but tonight their American masters will be pleased. All paid for by you the taxpayer. remember that the next time your mother is lying on a trolley in the A&E department."

Feb 28th Tuesday Antonov/Apaches.... the very next day Weds March 01 day Bush...

Sorry for guessing about Pat Flynn if it wasn't him. C. I was to find out where Tim E got his info from. Sean I don't think DU is really relevant here,, it just gives a10 the horn, its bad enough having Apache helicoptors here illegaly without permissions and with denials.

by Paddy Fri Apr 14, 2006 04:08

Summation 1 : Helicopters did come through Shannon.

Summation 2 : Maybe once, maybe a thousand times.

Summation Three : Nobody here knows any better.

by . Fri Apr 14, 2006 02:55

On this occasion there was a World Airways troop carrier parked there also.

by Charlie's Bird Fri Apr 14, 2006 02:52

Here is an image of the Antonov 124 that was berthed at Gate14 on the 1st of Feb 2006. This photo was taken after the journalist reported to Conor Cregan that he had seen cargo removed from the Russian built plane. Notice this plane is situated on the other security zone in the middle of the Aerodrome at Shannon Airport.

This zone is also protected by a fence similar to the on the left side of Gate 14. (see next picture for more detail)Usually this zone is where US military war-planes are berthed overnight or where repair work is carried out. This is not exclusive to the US military as I have seen planes form other nations being repaired there but mostly it is used by the US.

It is standard procedure to have a security detail that includes members from both An Gardai Siochana and the Irish Defence Forces when US military planes are parked there.

by Seán Ryan Fri Apr 14, 2006 00:39

There'd be more room on a big ship for Apaches too.

The shortest distance between two points is a geodesic. All things in the universe have three-dimensional attributes. The geodesic between Iceland and America is shorter than the geodesic between Ireland and America. And it would be so even if the problem were just a simple two-dimesnional one. In other words, the recognition of the 3rd dimesion does not provide an answer to my point.

Maybe you might like to give a description of the Apache's capabilities. Told you before I'm not an expert in weapons. Did I get the firing rate wrong? I only concentrated on the gatlin because it can unload a lot of DU in a very short timescale. I know it has lots of other onboard weaponry, I recently watched some footage of an Apache take on a group of Iraqis. Very messy stuff, Apache outclassed and outgunned them. So yup, I didn't get into its capabilities, I'm more interested in ours.

To be honest and blunt I don't believe the 'diversion' excuse. But it really doesn't effect the fact that these Apaches went through Shannon and that the American government knew it and didn't tell us or that they knew it and did tell us. A bad situation whatever the story. And totally unacceptable.

Let's hear the government answer some questions for a change. Activists are forever pushed and pushed to justify their charges (and rightly so) but quid pro quo - let's have some answers and not excuses.

by Paddy Thu Apr 13, 2006 23:24

A10,

Bush stopped off on the 1st March on the way out and on the 4th March on the way back.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/02/28/story246903.html

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=174900204&p...xx9yx

The Apaches were there in February.

Or not ?

by badman Thu Apr 13, 2006 23:02

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74563#comment140451

by Paddy Thu Apr 13, 2006 22:34

A10,

Are you correct when you say Bush was going through the same day as the helicopters ?

Bush went through on March 4.

Helicopters went throungh in February.

Can anyone verify the exact dates ?

by A10 Thu Apr 13, 2006 20:04

As to why ammo is not transported thru Shannon.WEIGHT.Ammo,wether DU or otherwise,is sent by ship.
You get more into a ship than a plane.Also they are pre deposited dumps around /Europe and the middle east that the US draws off as they need to resupply their army.Which are topped off by the continious resupply of USN shipping.
Why did the plane head for Shannon instead of Iceland?[1] There is a repair base in Shannon,not Iceland [2] Remember you are flying on a round surface[ie the globe] and the closest points on a curved surface are not in a straight line.Hence Shannon may even have been closer than Iceland.
Simple really ,no great conspircy theory once you apply common aeronautical sense ,and knowledge of how the US armed forces work..
Oh Btw the description of the apachaes capabilities is woefully wrong,and sounds like somthing written by a hysterical journalist.It is MUCH better than that.
Also as to why the Gardai gaurded the plane[s],wasnt GW dropping in that night as well?Or maybe they now have to do so after the anti war crowd continously trespass and damage other aircraft??Occams razor indeed.

by Seán Ryan Thu Apr 13, 2006 18:40

You should note that Mr. Loughran is not claiming that the flight was diverted through Shannon, that is what Amnesty has heard. One shouldn't take this to mean that Amnesty agrees with it or believes it.

As part of the excuse that our goverment have offered thus far, is that it was confused. It claims that the Antonov was booked on the return journey, but not on the outward journey (whilst it carried the Apaches).

Why would the Antonov only use Shannon on the return journey?

Take a look at a map of Europe. If a plane coming from America developed difficulties on the way to Iceland, then Iceland is the nearest country to it, why fly on the extra distance to Ireland? I know the excuse that the parts needed were to be found in Shannon. But if Iceland was a hub in an arms transaction then Iceland should be the place with the parts needed, not Ireland. This 'excuse' seems to provide more evidence of complicity that it does its removal.

One should also remember that Mr. Cowen often pointed out that Ireland was very strategically placed in that it offered the most efficient route between the States and the Middle East.

Admittedly we are missing a lot of details at present, so a totally accurate picture cannot be built up. But as Conor pointed out, the Gardaí Guarded this plane. Surely they ought to know why it was being guarded?

So whilst I'd love to give you a concrete answer to your concerns, I cannot do so without adding some speculation.

But the fact that we facilitated this outrage is undeniable.

The fact that the Gardaí aided and abetted is undeniable.

The fact is America is well aware of our protocols and laws and still didn't provide details of what was shipped through Shannon, or else our Government knew about it.

The fact is that Conor said that the Antonovs were a regular feature at Shannon. This has never been disputed.

The fact is we still accept assurances from these liars; the Americans and our government.

And remember Ocham's Razor - simply put: the simplest explanation is normally the correct one.

by Paddy Thu Apr 13, 2006 17:16

Im not suggesting it , the chairman of the Joint Committee is:

From the Amnesty presentation link on this page by anon.

, Mr. Loughran mentioned some other items, such as the shipment of helicopters through Shannon Airport. The planes coming through Shannon Airport are not allowed to carry any weapons and they are so advised in advance. This plane should have been going through Iceland rather than Ireland but was diverted on the day of its flight. It was said at the time that the diversion was due to a technical fault in the plane which was corrected at Shannon, where the facilities for doing this were available.

by Seán Ryan Thu Apr 13, 2006 16:59

Are you suggesting that two Antonovs suffered technical difficulties at the same time and that both diverted to Shannon?

Not impossible but very very unlikely. And what about all the other Antonovs that have landed there - did they have difficulties too?

Irregardless as to whether technical difficulties were involved or not, our government has lots of questions to answer about arming Israel and facilitating the Arms business in general, diversion or no diversion.

Let us not be diverted too.

by Seán Ryan Thu Apr 13, 2006 16:50

The 30mm rapid fire Gatling gun in the Apache AH64 helicopter is capable of firing 4,000 30mm armour piercing depleted uranium rounds a minute. This is 1,200 kilograms per minute.

This is only one of the many weapons the Apache has. It is also equipped with a computer that is capable of finding and giving degrees of priority to more than 30 targets at a time and can track and attack from a mile and a half away.

Whatever good the Apache is, it isn't much use without ammunition.

I'm not suggesting that the Apaches were armed during their respite in Shannon. But what is there to prevent these munitions, many of them illegal, from being sent through Shannon? A case of ammunition is smaller than an Apache, and the Apaches got through without a bother, thanks to the fine job the Gardaí did.

I don't reckon that it's a case of 'did the government know?'

It's more a case of they're supposed to know, tis our airport, our Gardaí and our country. Or at least that's what we've been told.

by Paddy Thu Apr 13, 2006 16:17

Conor

How do you "know" That this is an ongoing practice. In the Amnesty presentation link they gave an excuse about Technical failure being responsible for a diversion from Iceland to Ireland. No ?

You seem to be saying that its BS and they are doing this all the time. If so, please explain how do you know?

by Conor Cregan Thu Apr 13, 2006 15:28

For the record.

It was not freelance journo/photographer Pat Flynn that passed on the information about the what was offloaded at Shannon that day.

And its fact that this was not the first time these helicopters have been transported through Shannon.

Now we know that cargo planes that are berthed at the securtiy zone at gate 14 are transporting armaments.

The fact that these planes are guarded by An Garda Siochana is proof that the government knows full well when illegal cargo is going through Shannon.

I would suspect that they have full details of all CIA operations through Shannon as well.

Shame.

by Paddy Thu Apr 13, 2006 14:22

Thanks for that link to the Amnesty presentation. At least that is something.

Really I had no idea things had sunk so low at Shannon. I remain appalled.

Thanks again for the info.

by anon Thu Apr 13, 2006 09:04

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=FOJ20060411...H3#H3

by anon Thu Apr 13, 2006 05:06

To be fair it seems like it was pat flynn who saw the Antonov that day, and second hand information was relayed that he saw cars offload from the plane which might now may have happened but the numerous denials that helicopters were not on board from shannon workers and the GOV have now being factually rebutted, question is how was the story resurrected? via Tom McEnaney Deputy Business Editor, did he read about it first here, get the info from Pat or Conner or purely from FOIAs.

by Seán Ryan Thu Apr 13, 2006 04:39

Allow me to throw yet another pigeon amongst the cats.

If one reads Conor's comment, it will be seen that his reference to 'blackhawk helicopters' is not actually referring to the Antonovs that had landed that day. This facilitation of Israeli acts of agression is not an isolated incident, it is habitual in my opinion and the evidence agrees with me. Remember Conor tells us that Antonovs are regular visitors to Shannon. Now that the spin has been removed from the reason for their presence can we please have the details of each and every Antonov that has landed at Shannon?

Methinks it might be useful if our ever vigilant planespotters uploaded details of all and any Antonovs that they've logged.

by Paddy Thu Apr 13, 2006 03:09

I meant: Transportation.

by Paddy Thu Apr 13, 2006 03:05

whom it may concern,

Does anybody have any more information on the alleged tronsportatoin of heavy weapons through Shannon, please ?