art and politics- OPEN exhibition @ project- temple bar

by Pauline Lionel - Ickenox Fine Art Exhibitions Thu Oct 06, 2005 18:22 enquiries at ickenoxartshop dot co dot uk London House, 271 - 273 King Street, London W6 9LZ, UK

Ickenox Fine Art - 2006 Exhibition Venues

Calls For Visual Artists Submissions

WHO: All
Visual Artists\Photographers

WHAT: List of various 2006 ition venues in London- exhibition Opportunities

21 -23 March 2006 Chelsea Old Town Hall, King Road, Sloane Square, London

28 -30 March 2006 Landmark Arts Centre, Teddington, Middlesex
(Photographic Show Up To 70 Photographers)

TBA Sept 2006 Studio 95, Brick Lane, London

TBA Oct 2006 I Day Live Art Auction - Chelsea Old Town Hall, King Road, Sloane Square, London

TBA Oct 2006 1 Day Art Fair Chelsea Old Town Hall, King Road, Sloane Square, London

WHEN: 2006 Exhibition Venues -

TO APPLY:
Visit www.ickenoxartshop.co.uk
From the homepage select they key word notice board

EVENT ORGANISER
Ickenox Fine Art Exhibitions,
London House, 271 - 273 King Steet, London W6 9LZ, UK

EMAIL: [email protected]

NOTE:
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by dunk Fri Sep 16, 2005 18:05

:::::::::::::::::::::::context:
The exhibition “red archive” was on for the month of may in the project arts centre, temple bar. It was an OPEN SYSTEM; encouraging people to share their information and ideas, Sarah Pierce is a New York artist based in Dublin and she is currently working on the “metropolitan complex”. Duncan Crowley was someone who on passing through the gallery took up the offer to interact with the art

:::::::::::::::::::::::date:
Saturday 5th June 2004

:::::::::::::::::::::::summary so far:
Who uses art galleries and why, who doesn’t and why
The nature of today’s “art” community
The nature of today’s “activist” community
The relationship between the 2
What new process’s or movements are forming, are new relationships being created between the 2 communities
What sort of things could be happening in the future?

the global army? (growing anti capitalist movement / global justice movement)

The exhibition was an attempt to set up a space that would grow and gather material circulating around Dublin, to get a feel for what was “out there”

Endpoint verses process
one thing that popped up was the idea that the gallery and exhibition was a space in which the artist had to edit their stuff, put order on the chaos, had to formulate exactly what the content was about. The opposite to this is where the activist community is constantly engaged in the process with not too much time for reflection or sending out the message of what they were about-

art galleries should be the most exciting spaces in cities
unfortunately today, for the most part, they are not. Perhaps that is due to the content of the gallery; the “art”,
“modern art is bollox”
today it seems that the reality is that most people on the street don’t go into galleries, “its all arty farty rubbish” being the prevalent feeling,


:::::::::::::::::::::::transcript
SP- I thought it would be a nice way to see what materials are circulating @ Dublin and to also use the exhibition as a measure to see who actually uses this space

if you have an open system, how will things start to accumulate?

It kind of grew
Half way through- I got an email from dunk, he had come across the project, he works quite closely with some Irish and international activist groups- he started questioning why this was happening and what kind of life could it have.
where there is not just public coming in, not big cross section

We started talking about how both communities work, how you get people interested in your ideas. Maybe If you want to really communicate, you have to become an artist?

Activists are really good at that

2 quotes re activism art-
the doers are as passionate as they are desperate

lots of individuals,. Rep their view
4.30 dunk

how you came into this, how handed over to you

“modern art is bollix”
I go into galleries with the hope of seeing something that grabs me, something that’s real
So I go into gallery with the attitude – is there anything good, no, unfortunately, then I stumbled in here said what’s this, something different, an open system,

people who believe in what they are doing
has not been engagement between different groups,
groups are starting to connect, listen to each other, find out what each other are about

different groups,

architect, world s
came in, relationship between two, this is great- want to change the world, I believe they are getting better,
massive shift, came from Seattle- “anti globalisation” movement, people questing, asking what is going on

1 thing, art galleries, not being used to their maximum, they should be the most amazing spaces in cities, I hope more of this type of exhibition or art system happens more

I work with some different Irish “activist” groups and I dropped stuff into the exhibition on their behalf, indymedia, Irish social forum and being the most important.
Both these systems are Healthy because they are completely open, don’t have fixed agendas, both are communication spaces. Indymedia is only 4 or 5 years old, its gone from 1 website in 1999 to 150 websites and working groups in 90+ countries, a giant expanding evolving network. The process of social forum started in brazil in 2001 and is quickly developing worldwide

Society for- beginning of network age, its inevitable that more of this will happen

SP- I things, how was this communicated, minimising my effort
What people have?
Stuff organised, so much by Internet, the global army

Individuals, local, what’s happening in your space?
Mayday when open, cool anarchists, American accents, “oh yeah, were you at…” and begin naming cities where big demos had happened.

dc- really important point, its almost like a trend- go to demo, be an activist, its cool
If your committed, of course go to actions, but do more, there is still only small percent of people aware, biggest challenge is to engage with public and to try to get them aware and from that invovled

Long hair man- ?

dc- I go into galleries to see what they are about, fully support creative activity, its good, healthy- one of the reasons that we live in such an unhealthy age is because too little people involved with creative activity
part of my biased opinion – art should engage with and think about this world and its people,
Last thing I saw that really shook me was Sebastio Selgado- who was taking photos of places where people were dying, he was saying listen “the world is fucked up”
“
? – u jumped there

SP- I am working with a local artist from US, Martha Roseburg, she is claimed activist and she uses galleries for her metaphysical work

People who don’t see it as art only ploit, indiv attention, indiv can say “ I do think about these issues”
New York- art world can be incredibly isolated, im used to coming in that door,

?- art has potential to be that comm. Thing.

dc- 1 thing that pops up- who uses these spaces, most people go “art is bollix, galleries are full of shite” that’s the attitude on street, I tried to drag people in,

sp- most people who dropped in were artists,

dc- if any of the rest of you want to jump in here, please do, not let it be hi jacked

Joanne- video impact-

?- Thaigh, I came in and looked at for about 30 seconds,

sp- that’s what people are used to in spaces like this, completely?. Or artists, dunk was out sitting on street, engaging in conversation with people- feel comfortable,

Thaigh— it looks like a bookshop-

sp- yes, context, usually wont not do thing like this, I was there all time it was open, for me it did get reclaimed, that’s what was great. Like people waiting for theatre.

?- I thought it was a theatre set- film, set

sp- counter plywood aesthetic, others set in rules, this in theatrical way, campaign office

dc- I’ve something I want to communicate and try to do that. Made stuff got rubbish, made boards………………………………………..

by dunk Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:41

cork CAZ and barracka books
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=71074&condense_comments=false#comment117410

barracka books and CAZ

by Pauline Lionel - Ickenox Fine Art Wed Jul 20, 2005 03:33 enquiries at ickenoxartshop dot co dot uk

Visit: www.ickenoxartshop.co.uk

Exhibition Venues\Art Consultancy Opportunities

For those visual artists looking for opportunities to exhibit and sell their art work in London - United Kingdom.

We offer a list of exhibition dates and venues.
Also review past exhibitions online
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by dunk Sat May 14, 2005 01:44

art action tomorow @ chamber/ weaver court
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69815#attachment11135

housing and community newsletters will be distributed freely from indymedia network

by dunk Fri May 13, 2005 12:40

grey area=
in between 2 lives of building, it gets occupied by artists

KAZ photos
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68486&topic=artsandmedia#comment104585

old shop on capel street gets short artlife
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69613&search_text=dunk

KAZ- kilkenny autonomous zone?

old shop on capel street gets short artlife

by tareisdemacadam Thu May 12, 2005 20:45

???

by dunk Thu May 12, 2005 20:25

dear anonomous individual

easy to be cynical, come and meet us on the streets,
less cynical bulshit, have fun with us and maybe it might actually do something positive

you live
you die
enjoy in your way

all cleared on easa front, thanks for inquiring

by intrigued Thu May 12, 2005 20:10

will they let you back online, or is architecture finished now? your only career options left being the slow preparation for a revolutionary artist career, armed with old photos, new haircut, and other peoples' ideas relentlessly laying on the egotism till someone in RTE gives you a microphone like some latter day JPB and asks you to interview the traders of moore Street?

by dunk Thu May 12, 2005 18:47

lots of stuff looked at, thought about, discussed

enter your vision for this place

by dunk Thu May 05, 2005 02:07 fuspey at yahoo dot co dot uk

appropriatly tying in with all this art and politics stuff....

just a few quick words...

i first came into contact with EASA through my irish friend gemma (stumbled upon easa boat @ belgium, was at easa hrvtska, incm bornholm) then invited by Johannes to berlin. it has been a pleasure to be part of easa, it has helped define my view of what architecture is along with having a great time with some lovely people, so thanks.

im involved with a lot of different things, most of which for me are architectural (many of you have different views of what constitutes architecture, for me it is many things and i spend most of my energy working in the real world for improved quality of life for people through my architectural actions, both through ark design and physical actions/ activism, i see no boundary between)
Sometimes i have felt frustrated being part of different architectural groups/ institutions/ communities/ jobs as i feel that there is little or no concern for the deeper issues of what architecture is for or what it can achieve. this frustration has, at times, turned to anger toward these groups for their, in my view which it seems is very biased, apparant lack of concern for issues i feel strongly about: environmental sustainability in its fullest sense and global justice. so at times i have communicated with and to these groups in very agressive ways, for this i am sorry as it has had the result of pushing people away.

so as jelk states "for sickness you need a cure", id encourage you to go the next step which is to find out the reasons for the "sickness", i say this with quite a full knowledge of "illness", knowing friends who have gone through hard times; attempted suicides, suffer from depression, schizophrenia etc...its not pretty.

so from initial piece i hope i have outlined what it is that has driven me to act the way i have. again jelk feels i am calling out for attention, i am. but not as he sees it, i dont do this for me or my ego (im sure many will challenge this), i do it for the issues i am trying to raise.
i remember back in bornholm when i gave the FUSPEY lecture one evening and it was jelk who was playing the little trick of blocking out the name of my then website, oraiste.com. i wondered why he did this and i have my own ideas as to why he did. there i was throwing out a few ideas i was working on to the easa community in attempt to widen the discussion we were having prior to easa 03 "sustainability"
after this there was a SESAM in banja luka, bosnia, we tried to make an eco city- this was a fantastic experiment, for me this is the real agenda we have to work toward as architects, if there is to be any hope for sustaining life for our species: the development of eco cities. i was frustrated at this time due to what i percieved as a lack of support for the bosnian initiave from easa.

it was at that easa INCM in bornholm where mr. albatros (jerome) first shared his vision for easa @ lille, i remember it very well, jost, himself and myself having a fantastic livley discussion about how great it would be; architects going back to the city and attempting to really engage with the people again- la conditionn publique happened and i dont think we, easa, did really do enough to try to positively affect the community we were part of for a very short while. there were problems, there were challenges, thats what ark is about, on the whole i dont think we tried to make that a shared utopia, instead i felt that we stayed "inside" the safety and walls of la CP, to make our own utopia for us alone. some did go out, some did engage, some beautiful things did happen, im not sure if there is yet full feedback on that experiment.

again it is odd. there will always be personality and culture clashes (not always but in our lifetime anyway, and im afraid jelk and myself have never really hit it off.
in terms of making things relevant, i remember having a discussion with the danish easa organisers about the relevance of making a hovercraft at a "sustainable" event. anyway the point i was getting at was this- about the, sometimes, difficult dynamic of human interaction. first or second night @ lille gerald and jelk passed a "little arab kid" on the stret, some interaction happened with the result of a stone being thrown at the lads, this was told to me by gerald. later the football tournament (a regular easa occurance in "safe" locations) was postponed due to trouble with the kids, a few of us tried to resolve the conflict, which we did, the games went on, we made friends with those "trouble kids" and succeeded in bringing them into la CP where together we started a workshop; "the roubaix tapestry". the cp chefs said that was precisely what that EASA was supposed to be about, engaging with the local community, getting them to use la CP, later myself and jelk had another incident which resulted in that special piece being destroyed and me getting quite sick through sheer exhaustion, frustration, anger all rolled into one.

and lastly in response to jelk, it seems our argument has revolved about the idea that i have put my ideas before the crowd and you have been picking holes in them, as obviously i dont have all the ansers. i have tried telling you what i was about and what i was trying to do, i asked you to tell me about what you are for and what you do to affect positive change, i never heard much from you about what your for.
our last interaction seemed to be...
"write something interesting" you said.
- greening the city i said, i dident hear from you after that
http://easa.antville.org/stories/965577/#1079083

i heard from some easa people and that helped me, id better get back to it now, thesis up soon

by the way, i never push my friends, i told some about this situation and asked them for support as it has upset me.

in regard to my poor communication skills in this communication space, it was brought up before and i concsiously did attempt to soften my approach, make more things easa and ark related. in a previous discussion on this theme flo (25. March 2005) stated: "i think everybody has asked duncan to change his postings, and the change is very visible (not only in this posting)."
as stated later, the fact that most of my last posts were about our "greening the city" project here in dublin, which i cant see how anyone can deny is architectural, in which i was asking the community for their views and assistance as happened earlier in terms of the "greenway" discussion

i tried answering this and the unfair argument made by adam supported by his edited choice of images i uploaded to site, the reasons for the "double-post" re the 6 questions, my reporting to the easa community what ark action im invovled in in attempt to generate discussion with my fellow EASAians earlier but i got no response, so im posting it in this thread to conclude these few words:
__________________________________________________________

architecture is a political act (2. May 2005)
http://easa.antville.org/stories/1110330/#1111786

This years mayday RTS is passing off smootly in dublin.

The posting of this article has caused offence to some in EASA, so much so that a call for my ban from EASA community has been made. The reason is for "all his endless posts about police brutality and other injustices in the world" despite nearly all my last posts being around the idea of "greening the city, connnecting communities" which involves the idea of trying to make dublin an eco-city and work done here in dublin in opening up 2 new community gardens in the dolphins barn area. So i feel it is an unwarranted request and hope that EASA will not push me out of the community that i have got a huge amount of things from.

some might argue that the content of this post is not architectural, i would argue that it gets to the core of what architecture and urbanism is for- ideally for the creation of healthy spaces for healthy communities to exist in.

the idea of reclaiming space in cities has come as a reaction of the killing of people friendly zones to give way for further carzones.

the act of reclaiming a street for a temporary length of time and using it in a celebrational autonomous way is a hugely educational tool in how cities can function.


ideas of ownership, control, challenge, shifts in use in the urban context are a massive area of understanding how cities function.

for those trying to work for a healthier more sustainable environment it is a means to demonstrate what they are for, as opposed to just moaning about too many cars.

for many people the formal political system has become so beurocratic that it is not fulfilling expectations on healthy city change, with that people can and are taking it on themselves to get up and do something to make a point, and this idea is echoed both from bottom up and top down (see http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69638 )

events such as RTS are another great networking tools and also, and perhaps most importantly, they are social events to meet up, relax a bit, have a bit of fun.

next point- this RTS was called by DISSENT-Éire who are part of the international DISSENT body organising for demonstrations against the G8 this summer. many people are concerned about the poorer developing parts of the world and feel that the existing trade rules are having the result of maintaining and infact increasing global poverty along with the unneccessary deaths of millions each year. many global groups are against these unfair trade rules; religious, trade union, socialist, anarchist....
should architects attempt to have a global vision?
should the flows of global trade, people, communication be considered when dealing with architecture in todays context, for many yes, for some no; architecture is about making buildings and thats all.

lastly the feast of Mayday was celebrated as one of the major feast days in the old celtic calendar, bealtaine. back in a time when people lived and worked in according with the seasons. in todays world many feel we have stopped working with mother nature, perhaps we could try to bring about a rebalance.

so they are a few thoughts which i feel justify my stance.

RTS photos
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69141&condense_comments=false#comment106347

DISSENT-ÉIRE
http://www.dissenteire.tk/

car free day- 20. August 2003
http://easa.antville.org/stories/485733/

global civil society - how things can be in the future- new communication - 8. May 2004
http://easa.antville.org/stories/781952/
___________________________________________________

Ban - 2. May 2005
"I think it's about time we ban Duncan from this site" adam
http://easa.antville.org/stories/1111221/#1111498

previous call for censorship
"Delete the trash of the irish lunatic"- jelk 29. May 2004
http://easa.antville.org/stories/804200/#804360

first time a form of censorship happened with article being hidden from frontpage and topic "architecture?" being gotten rid of:
6 Questions, many answers: discussion - 21. March 2005,
http://easa.antville.org/stories/1077362/

im aware that architecture is many things to many people, i ask that we engage with all forms and interests in architecture.
for some like myself it does have a strong political connection, EASA 04 was supposed to be "a political experience" (link above), was it?
i dont think a ban is fair or warranted, i think further discussion would be helpful for us young architects.

attempts were made for more feedback post EASA04
communication and consensus- any french feedback?- 3 years?
http://easa.antville.org/stories/979172/#985568

and after all this talk building buildings does come into it, the first major building i got to design is being built: a hostel for dublin homeless women, some of which are heroin addicts

i could not have designed it to the level i did without all the "outside" aspects i had learned from my education.
and it does have to do with politics- who builds, who lives there, what rules are in place, how can people progress, how can people feel a sense of connection and ownership of a space, how do you deal with issues of depression, suicide, attempted murder.........

loveplatz discussion @ berlin 2001

samogar art gallery @ sangria night c/o lithuanian mad hatters 2002

silent art installation "she weeps" @ lille 2004

by dunk Mon May 02, 2005 15:30

call for my ban from europes student architecture website for trying to encourage open exploration into relationship between architecture, art, politics, environment, life:

http://easa.antville.org/stories/1111221/#1111498

response:
i hope easa remains open not like the ark forum http://www.irish-architecture.com/ (used to be www.archeire.com) in my own country where i have been banned for @3 years
post about that and censorship:
http://groups.msn.com/oraiste/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=346&LastModified=4675348354359474810

it will be ironic though, as when i was banned it was over the issue of raising debate about the notion of eco cities and now that story has moved on a bit (see above links)

this is just to let you know whats going on, EASA is the euro network ive been part of for 4 years
http://www.easa.tk/

by Seoidin Sun Apr 17, 2005 17:07

ARTISTS ON STRIKE!

Call Out…..

In Dublin it is really difficult to find free spaces to meet. Artists, Musicians, Activists and Lovers this is affecting us culturally; it inhibits us all from reaching and realising our creative potential. We all complain about it: not being able to afford band practise venues, no alternative exhibition spaces, having to pay places to perform, meeting in expensive pubs and cafes, working in jobs we ideologically disagree with. The television programmes that supported us, the radio D.J.’s that believed in us are slowly getting shifted off the airwaves. If we creative peoples are unable to meet, debate and discuss ideas how are we supposed to make interesting and relevant work? If we cannot meet and converse how can we create the society we desire? The music we desire? How can we share our vision? How can we begin to make this vision possible?
We can all make work in our bedrooms or in the confines of an expensive studio and then compete against each other for the few awards, the record label deals, the artist grants. But if we are to make truly great work we need to create a wave, a tide on which we all can ride. We need to feed and support each other. Whether we define ourselves as musician, dancer, film maker, activist, artist, lover we are all experiencing the same problem; we are all in this together. Affordable indoor space no longer exists; we are slowly being made silent.


I say no more, something must be done. Leave the safety of your cages… begin to meet, look for the gaps, support one another, create a culture of trust, this society that is embracing materialism needs our connection to nature and spirit. Let’s make our vision audible.

Artists go on Strike!

I propose an action that will highlight this plight. I call for an action highlighting the ridiculous price of property in Dublin. I call for an action that will highlight the needs of creative individuals for affordable indoor space. There will be a meeting on Wednesday 4 May open to anyone interested in talking about a possible action.
Contact: Seoidin 0857344904

by dunk Sun Apr 17, 2005 16:25 fuspey at yahoo dot co dot uk

VIDEO: "mmm skyscraper i love you..." McDermott Tower comes crashing down in Ballymun - Mar 16 2005
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69007&author_name=kev

VIDEO: "The Last Jingle Jangle Of The Auld Triangle" (Mountjoy Closure & Super Prison Construction) - Mar 1 2005
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68804&author_name=kev

Housing activists meet to discuss redevelopment & privatisation of their homes
Dec 7 2004
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67827&author_name=kev

FFF vs PPP: Fight For the Flats or Public Private Partnerships? -= Nov 22 2004
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67596&author_name=kev

Living with state dereliction in St Michael's: local community rejects privatisation of their homes - Oct 12 2004
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66997&author_name=kev

Travellers take to the streets earlier: protesting at local council blocking access to Dunsink Lane - Oct 8 2004
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66937&author_name=kev

"My name is Jenny and I'm from Montpelier Hill". Residents Take Direct Action to Stop Kerb Crawlers - Sep 4 2004
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66450&author_name=kev

LUASing your mind over property prices in Dublin? - Aug 16 2004
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66229&author_name=kev

Photos taken just after the eviction of the people from "Disco Disco" by An Garda Síochána -Jul 15 2003
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60407&author_name=kev&results_offset=30

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60386&author_name=kev&results_offset=30
four audio reports from the opening of 'Disco Disco' - reasons, the building, the garda, a history -Jul 14 2003

'Disco Disco' - new autonomous centre/zone opens up in central Dublin (with pictures) -Jul 13 2003
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60382&author_name=kev&results_offset=30

dublin communities being DISconnected and driven out

by dunk Wed Mar 23, 2005 14:51

Michael Albert, creator of z mag made a very good point:
"fighting the good fight"
(rough paraphrasing)
why have we not succeeded in changing the world to the one we go on about, (he began his activism during vietnam war days)
is it mainly because there is a lack of belief that we can and will?
do we do our "little bit" to feel good, go on the demo because its the right thing to do, or because it is one of the many tools we have to change things.
his main point was most have not convinced themselves that they can change things, if that is the case why waste their time?

http://www.zmag.org/anarchism.htm
http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/albertcandim.htm

part of post made earlier in relation to continued attempt to make imc-ie more than just a website
more work is underway on that front
look forward to slurping soup later in the year
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68510#comment100759

why bother and what can i do, are themes explored also by george monbiot

"So what can I do?" is a common response to George Monbiot's book, The Age of Consent.
http://www.globalrising.org/
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2000/06/13/the-age-of-consent-a-manifesto-for-a-new-world-order/

you can listen to audio pieces of his intro to his book and his argument against anarchism here

talking shite
http://easa.antville.org/stories/1041499/#1042246

by dunk Sat Mar 19, 2005 14:31

forgot to add the ongoing
::open system project ::

alvar aalto was an anarchist

by dunk Tue Aug 31, 2004 01:15

"red archive" (relationship between art and politics) open exhibition ran for 1 month in project arts centre, temple bar, dublin, imc stuff was put in, screenings put on, open feedback session between "art" and "activist" communities-@ 30 mns
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/the_red_archive_discussion.mp3

before the feedback session i brought imc process board out onto streets, along with printflares (irish imc monthly free paper) and sat down talking with people on the street.
then we had the session- only @ 3 "activists", 10 "artists" was recorded on film and this rough audio recording- recording is half transcribed and will be used later for future "modern art is bollox" actions

indymedia radio network

to the streets, indymedia communication action

by dunk Sun Aug 29, 2004 14:58

muralismo is on now in dublin
real art, a reason behind it and top stuff too
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66365

discussion re this here
im trying to get imc crew to participate in this forum and with that get them to challenge selfish architecture community
http://easa.antville.org/stories/887874/

heres a taster:
"i met my dad the other night and he said to me "what are you or what do you want to be, an architect, an artist, a communicator, an educator, or what?"
i couldent state which really, as i see that which im doing as all

i was reading more about the buddha there last weekend in clare, i liked his method, it could apply to ark systems
1-highlight problem
2-find reason why problem exists
3-develop ways to resolve problem
4-do the things that have to be done to resolve problem"
dunk

"The situationists wanted the transformation of the world into one which is in a constant state of revolution and newness (always changing ambiances). The two main tools to perform such a transformation, were detournement of pre-existing aesthetic elements (close to Duchamp's ready-made but applied to all domains of life) and derive through the city, searching for unpredictable events and various urban ambiances.
Constant's New Babylon is an attempt to apply 'unitary urbanism' ideas at the scale of a city (not 'new urbanism' as i mistakely wrote in the previous post) . Basically, that means the deliberate creation, by a collective organization, of ludic ambiances or particular moments of life."
spuk?

so maybe you can contribute- real open participitive exciting ever changing-
changing the world (its doing that all the time anyway in its own little way)

of to make a little film now with muralsimo

muralsmo

by dunk Fri Jun 11, 2004 14:59

getting there
little by little

screened new "indymedia vid- mayday04" in the heart of dublin office land 3 days ago.

little by little

audio report will be online soon, got half hour.
clare should be excellent


getting film festival together too, talk of john pilger coming over soon

slán

by leewelch - me, myself and i Thu Jun 10, 2004 13:05 leewelch5 at hotmail dot com

it was a nice twist. the idea of someone wanting more and adding to it. a semi-opened forum and you as the viewer had the chance, you still do, to go and make more or add to it. it should have - would have - "if" this or that, is bollocks. my statement is - make it happen. stop saying it "could have" "if" and go make the "if" happen. life is what you make it.

by dunk Tue Jun 08, 2004 03:04

just watched the ::indymedia mayday film:: fucking lovely work lads, well done

screenings on the streets, on the beaches, on the hills
more wanders, more people finding out, getting invovled

till ideally the entire population of the planet is communicating with itself about what kind of world we want

i want fun sustainable peaceful existence
its getting closer day by day

on the `banner
georgy boy cant but be affected by the magic spirit that will be there to greet him in clare in a few weeks.

artistic ahimsa= using the tool of "acting the bolix" to change the world- absolutely non violent artistic, creative, celebrational action that all can get invovled in

"PLAY is an essential part of society for man the eternal child"
said the very famous finnish artist, industrial designer, architect and anarchist aalvar alto in the 20`s

he his regarded as one of the heroes of the "modern movement" by the architectural community- id like to communicate the things i am still doing and thinking to that community, but im banned 2 years now- not very progressive in my opinion

http://www.archiseek.com/content/forumdisplay.php?s=447f919cae96e42e60fd7ab3afeca1fb&forumid=15

this will be challenged again soon

did any of you see FUSPEY film number 1?
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/oxford/2003/06/273074.html
if so what do you think?

we should create beauty

FUSPEY film number 1

by dunk Mon Jun 07, 2004 19:10

shit just typed a report and lost it, the frustration with these machines.....

anway
global network community- original idea, 9/11/2002
http://groups.msn.com/ORAISTE/photoalbum1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=60

half hour audio upload will be on soon
will write report again soon

there is no differnece between art/ politics/ culture
all just about living

art gallerys should be the most exciting spaces in cities with everyone using them
today this is not the way it is, we are changing that

please help make global network project happen-
200+ street parties FOR fun, sustainable, peacful existence.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64936&search_text=global%20civil
connected by "art" in 200+ art gllerys @ planet

everyone wants that- lets try to make that idea a reality

acting the bollix

magic tanks

music and messing is what the irish are best at- let us bring that to the global jsutice movement

we have crossed the threshold into the ::network age::

art is not just the stuff in gallerys- its all the time- its living

by pc Thu Jun 03, 2004 21:13

love parade has been cancelled in berlin..


it got really big, they began to need sponsorship, the council forced it to change from a demonstration to an event, insurance got too much ....

thats really disappointing i can see how it got to that point but afaik it started off as a house/techno rts... i donno how the guy let it become a brand....

is creator coming down

by dunk Thu Jun 03, 2004 19:21

- Clare flag (banner)
- “ark stuff” book by me
- sacred reich “the American way” tape
- my cardboard placards- crc- archeire, ecotopia, no war
- playspace for the city, my architectural project 2000
- “love parade- portrait album” book
- ecotopia booklet with “cities as forests, buildings as trees” insert


- worlds religions, book
- Gandhi, father of a nation, book
- Web of life, fritjof capra, book
- Hidden connections, fritjof capra, book
- The earth flipbook, book
- Fuspey shrine
- Flyers; ecocity banja luka, fillawelly, world bank bonds boycott
- Political globe of earth
- Fences and windows, noami klein, book
- Tin tin dans la pays du soviets, book not printed in English
- Asterix and the great crossing
- Metallica “and justice for all” tape
- SLF (stiff little fingers) “inflammable material” tape
- Deep forest, tape
- Moby “play” cd
- “theatre of the oppressed” augusto boal, book
- “a few ideas from Duncan Crowley” book

my friend pears from ecotopia dropped in a few plants, drawings of plants, a herbal potion, and the instructions on how to make it


saturdays feedback session:
we are hoping to do a little wander and flyering @ the streets @ 1.00 then get to gallery for @ 2. open discussion gets underway @ 2.15. this will be recorded by anna livia and indymedia, material will form program on nearfm

anna livia will come down for part of it and record, they also want to interview indymedia later in week.

any printflares, flyers for sat are most welcome

it is a pity more people did not add their v iews about the relationship between art and politics on this thread
i hope some of you do come down to the gallery on saturday

by dunk Tue Jun 01, 2004 14:48

sounds unlikely to happen,
why is this.
why dont we go out and dance on the streets

89- berlin 150 people dance FOR tolerance, understanding and respect between nations
1999- 1.5 million people dance

2002- 10.5 million people dance for a better world, why not

for more stuff see
http://easa.antville.org/stories/468796/

glad to recieve see pc`s point about who uses art gallerys, at present i agree its jsut the few as i feel the content if mostly bollox

what would happen if the global justice movement really started to get a lot more creative.?
new urban processs (its already happening with the RTS, but there is still room for a lot more growth)

i hope you all come down on sat and participate in the open discussion

as things stand at present:

this sat @ 2pm "feedback session" in art gallery, hopefully this will be recorded in audio and visual by indymedia, anna livia and near fm. near might be able to braodcast live? (more on that later)

preceeding this will be another indymedia "communication action" wander @ streets, giving out free papers and flyers, also a "street screening", ?

included in this will be fun and mess aspect, have asked for people to come dress up and dance on streets, dancing girls needed

the feedback session will look at the exhibtion, open systems, use of art gallerys- who is and who is not using them and why, art world, activist world, new connections, future projects (global network project and from that global love pareade)

it will be an open free for all discussion.

it should be great

art galleries should be the most amazing spaces in cities, used by all, today this is not the case, this exhibition has started to challenge this and all of us, it is only the start

1,500,000 people dancing on the streets of berlin

up with dancing girls

creativity costs nothing and CAN change all

by pc Tue Jun 01, 2004 02:56

the names your one gave the exhibition made it seem bigger... and i thought it came from abroad thats why i presumed it was part of series
what instigated this for her....

is from a particular art college?

the problem(ie chip on my shoulder) i think the prevents interaction with art gallerys is the notion that you have to be an "artist" have done a degree... then applied and begged for a grant to do the simplest thing like this, did she do this or prove me wrong?

the ballymun people even left a cd player to listen to the urban regeneration debt thing... don;t knick it now :)

exhibit has got much bigger i like it... with no small help from dunk ,he may ramble but he gets things done... thats his election slogan :)

like the long page of indymedia banners, was that your dunc that you used in the indymedia centre also... really great visual impact to see all the individual but complimentaries groups

by dunk Mon May 31, 2004 21:35

A basic sign language, warchalking communicates the status of wireless networks on the surfaces of the city. Since the appearance of the first chalks in June 2002, it has also proved to be wireless internet’s perfect media story. Wired dubbed it this year’s fastest-spreading tech fad, Nokia has dubbed it illegal, and the phenomenon’s general level of attention has made Matt Jones, the information architect who coined the term, a bit of a new media star. Having immediately been struck by the similarity of warchalking to artist Heath Bunting’s 1996 Project X, in which Bunting chalked URLs around the city to invite feedback, Mute asked these two masters of the white stuff to get together and compare notes. Chalkers, it turns out, are still a long way off agreeing where the war is at.

more of that here:
http://www.metamute.com/look/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=1&NrIssue=25&NrSection=10&NrArticle=803&ST_max=0&search=search&SearchKeywords=chalk&SearchLevel=0

downtown Toronto on wireless networks
http://www.nakedwireless.ca/winudcol.htm

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet-infrastructure.htm

warchalking on pavement- a new language

connect here

language

toronto nodes

net

by dunk Sun May 30, 2004 14:19

why dancing girls matter:

global network project:
wider global world social forum process, whose main communication network is facilitated by indymedia network
WSF 3 project did not happen. but im sure that it is only a matter of time before this way of communicating becomes the norm.

and thats when we will really be changing things
its healthy, its natural, its inevitable

"for the first time, we are witnessing the emergence of a "global civil society" represented by nongovernmental organizations, which are often active in several countries and communicate across borders.....whose vision is based on the respect of human dignity, the ethics of sustainability and an ecological view of the world"
wrote fritjof capra in "the hidden connections" (2002)

this new "network age" really came into being at the closure of the WTO talks in Seattle due to massive public peaceful protest in november 1999- thats when the term "globalisation" started to get used in the mainstream world. the first indymedia node was also set up at this time in Seattle and since then has developed into a global network of 150+ nodes in 90+ countries.
The basic viewpoint held by the "seatttle coalition" was
-existing rules of global trading are unfair and have to change
-the public are not being informed about these issues as the mainstream media has "vested interests"
-new process`s are needed to both challenge, reform or end todays unfair trade rules and to inform the worlds public
-along with this a new communication system is needed to facilitate open transperent dialogue for those in civil society so as to either create an alternative fair system or fix the present one

in january 2001, the "seatttle coalition" held the first "world social forum" in Porto Alegre, Brazil. since then there was WSF2, again in Porto Alegre in 2003 and this year WSF3 in Mumbai, India

the technology is already here for us and people are already maximizing it, but it is still early days and so there is a lot more we can do

it is very difficult and near impossible for most to travel and participate in the social fora but it is possible for us to set up a new system, whereby the real and the virtual worlds work together to facilitate a wider participation in the social forum.

global network project:
wider global world social forum process, whose main communication network is facilitated by indymedia network

it would be a situation whereby when there is a World Social Forum, say in Pakistan, the usual things happen but to expand on that a network is created so that in each country, or each area where there is an indymedia group a convergence or physical meeting centre is set up for the duration of the social forum. this could be say, dublins cultivate centre. the space would allow for those interested in these things to physically meet each other and also to be part of the world social forum. this would happen by live streams and web conferencing technology via the internet. ie- fritjof capra is talking about say "local greeen groups and a global eco city network" in pakistan. that is beamed out through the net and shown in real time in the different centres. in dublin 500 people are gathered in the main space at cultivate and watch the forum, one of our audience wants to add a comment, he lifts his hand, this is registered by indymedia person at computer who clicks to main site that ireland has a comment. this is registered on global network.
comments are taken and forum develops through same process as happens at present.

simply we would all be part of the process-
literally thinking and being able to act globally while acting and thinking locally

this article was written here
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64936&search_text=global%20civil
im sure that it is only a matter of time before this way of communicating becomes the norm.

yesterday i met and talked with sarah pierce, she is very happy about the way the project has developed
next week will be an open "feedback meeting" whereby all can discuss the exhibition, the content (new artistic, political process) the nature of the "art community" and the "activist community", the nature of art gallerys and that of art itself.

in my opinion the 2 most progressive systems on the planet are indymedia and social forum, they are both OPEN, they are both communication spaces that simply facilitate the ongoing dialogue of the people of this planet. it is important that they dont state "this is the way everybody should think and act"- so process matters, as opposed to endpoint solutions

so what could happen?
dave and myself shook hands, so im getting help- the project has started- all help welcome.

a future scenario:
WSF8 happens in pakistan (as outlined above) we go to project arts centre for the week to participate- probably @ 2000 people only, most people still unaware of this stuff.
so what do we do?
put call out for global street party- 20 million people worldwide on the streets to communicate that something important is happening to the world.
non violent, non confrontational, fun, educational, celebrational, artistic and political, free, friendly, world changing

as you know from reading asterix books, dancing girls make a big difference

in case you doubt this, or sceptically think "thats never going to happen" it already has happened
10million for global anti war march, feb 15 2003
love parade berlin- 1989- 150 people take to the streets in a demonstration FOR tolerance, understanding, respect between nations- 1999 1.5 million people dancing on the streets- it fucking rocked
gaudi
gaudi
gaudi
spass
spass
spass

global network project (dancing girls matter)

by dunk Fri May 28, 2004 15:14

I was talking with the artist, Sarah Pierce, who put together this exhibition and project have decided that it will run for an extra week.
There is also talk of a feedback session happening next Saturday in the project arts center as a means of wrapping up the exhibition, finding out what went on and thinking of ways about how this sort of stuff might progress.
Indymedia will be doing more “communication action” on the streets that day and will have the new printflare with mayday stuff; there might even be a street screening or 2, more of that later.
Feedback is an essential part of healthy open systems so it would be great if as many people who contributed to the exhibition came and added their views and opinions to the session.

This exhibition is not part of a global art network project (yet) and for the time being this kind of space has been created in Dublin alone, the artist did try not to drive the project, wishing instead to allow for the system to grow as news of its existence spread by word of mouth. Since opening on mayday it has trebled in size. She feels that some issues have arisen from it so far; the nature of artistic space, who uses it and how, and also the role of virtual space and systems, how do they add to things?

I feel that it is great that this exhibition has happened as at present many, if not most people, simply don’t bother going into modern art galleries as they feel that “its all arty bollox” but this exhibition has at least challenged that, boundaries have been crossed, people never before visiting art galleries are now using the gallery to get their message across

The brief of the exhibition states it’s about complicating the relationship between art and politics, I wonder about this. Personally I feel its about simplifying the link, or blurring the boundary, there is, or should not be any difference between art, politics, culture, social human interaction, play, celebration. It’s all part of living

The US architect frank Lloyd Wright said in the 1920`s “when the day dawns when science, art and religion become as one, we will then have that which is missing today”

Thankfully this is starting to happen, I believe we have crossed the threshold into a new age, the network age

New systems like indymedia and social fora are allowing us to communicate with each other in new ways. Once again we are talking with and listening to each other. We are informing ourselves about how this world is working, we are finding out ways to improve matters and we are taking (artistic, creative) action to change things. It is exciting and OPEN, anyone can get involved, many have already, more are starting to participate, who knows what the future holds?

The future is (y)ours

by redjade Tue May 25, 2004 15:51

{ sorry for the delay on getting these up }

by dunk Mon May 24, 2004 12:16

it is a bit strange that there is no mention of the "red archive" on projects website
http://www.project.ie/cgi-bin/homepage.pl

it is a also a bit disapointing that most of the people we have talked with at front desk (threshhold) from project have not actually viewed the material, perhaps everyones too busy, perhaps its info overload, perhaps not interested????

anyway the US artist living in ireland?, sarah pierce, who is responsible for this excellent OPEN project has been in contact with me so hopefully she will clear up a few issues and also give some feedback, both on how she feels the exhibition is going and what she thinks of our content
we are still unsure whether this is only happening in ireland or whether it is happening as a global Sychnchranistic network project, something which i am keen to develop in a similar way here
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64936&search_text=global%20network

the exhibition finishes up next weekend, perhaps a little open public feedback meeting might happen?
perhaps near fm radio might like to get invovled?

by dunk Mon May 24, 2004 11:08

there always little problems, but we learn how to solve these problems, little by little

indymedia ireland front page

IMC network

by dunk Mon May 24, 2004 11:00

IMC -independant media centres

for the benefit of those unfamiliar with indymedia yet-
right hand column- "publish your news", anyone anywhere in the world can access a computer, log onto www.indymedia.ie and put their news and images online.
an example of "open publishing"- you posting makes you the media, as indymedias slogan goes "dont hate the media, become the media"

the image on top "newswire image" is from one of the stories within the news, clicking on it takes you directly to that story

central "features" section is stories compiled by the "editorial group", an open body of volunteers who give their time and energy to the indymedia project without payment, because they believe in it as a project. anyone can get involved with this project

new articles appear on top of these 2 rows and push earlier pieces further down, all these can be viewed in archives.

the left hand side includes, indymedia process, search engine, indymedia support, indymedia mayday centre*, upcoming events, printflare**

the bottom section of front page gives direct links to the 150+other websites in the indymedia global network which spans over 90+ countries- all this since its birth in november 1999, during the closure of the WTO (world trade organisation) talks in Seattle

the very last bit states:
" 2001-2004 Independent Media Centre Ireland. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by Independent Media Centre Ireland"

indymedia ireland is powered by "ocailt"

*indymedia mayday centre-
was our first physical space, a joint project with CMN (community media network) who let us use their space, up and running for 10 days with an exhibition and a comprehensive festival programme of workshops, screenings, press releases and a cafe
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64293

**printflare
is our newspaper that we are currently trying to print every month, always free and distributed by those that make the effort to do so, also freely downloadable from the website
http://www.indymedia.ie/printflare.php

(in case indymedia viewers are wondering, this is primarly for the content of the exhibiton and other communication systems)

by dunk Sun May 23, 2004 15:40

gin dobry
zaibishta days
jenquia
dovidzenia

project gallery- blue building @ temple bar

fun sustainable peaceful existence- film board @ window

indymedia stuff @ red archive

artistic ahimsa- communication is the key

etaoins black blanket idea develops while the camera charges

by dunk - fuspey Sun May 23, 2004 13:46

first FUSPEY space @ dublin city and virt world

11.00am-left gallery, etaoin and myself, (i dressed up in my battle ware*) went through temple bar and grafton st with 1-indymedia process board - 2- indymedia content- 3-FUSPEY film board

sat on top of grafton st, next to tyango dancers who pulled a good crowd, we talked with them beforehand and they said "we will get you a nice crowd with our dancing"- they did.
had some printflares and a few DGN posters re days public meeting
talked with a few people

1.00 left grafton st, made a few public announcements
"ladies and gentlemen you are all welcome to the free indymedia screening of the award winning 22minute long film ::globalisation and the media:: in project gallery temple bar"
first outside central bank to all the punk kids, then temple bar square, then street.

1.30- screened from a laptop film followed by another very good short film "eye in the storm" from IMC- argentina, then broke for food
@ 8 watched screenings, some never before aware of indymedia- gallery were v sound letting us head upstairs for viewing

3.00ish arrived in DGN meeting "from mayday to bush", did more communication things there

6.00ish back through moore st, temple bar, back to gallery.

put more stuff into gallery
1-fuspey shrine
2-tintin dans la pays du soviets, book
3-asterix and the great crossing, book
4-"inflammable material" record by SLF (stiff little fingers, belfast 70`s punk band)
5-"play" moby, cd, (uses cd sleeve to write political essays)
6-"a few ideas from duncan crowley", book
7-fillawelly flyer
8-world bank bonds boycott flyer

great day, thanks to all who helped




view "eye in the storm" here
http://thunderbay.indymedia.org/news/2004/05/13863.php

* battle ware = refers to items i put on, battle refers to the war of information, days action was part of ::artistic ahimsa::
items were
1-peace scarves from tibetan buddhist frineds i lived with in india 99
2-peace ribbon- made in oxford as part of peace action beofre war 03
3- orange wig- fun and creativity
5-clare hat- from when the banner won the all ireland hurling in 97
4- mayday o4 red whistle
5- "non violent action for better world" placard

pix later
yesterday was an example of creating FUSPEY spaces- (fun sustainable peaceful existence)
whereby we again engage in dialogue and debate about the realites of this world, part of new agora project
http://easa.antville.org/stories/469840/#796666

these spaces should be safe, fun, creative, celbrational zones, as i tried to do at mayday04 demo a few weeks back
"non violent action for a better world"
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64799&search_text=facts%20vs%20facts#comment72542

i hope these spaces become more the norm in front line actions
up with people
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65004&condense_comments=false#comment75899

who knows what things will be like in the future
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64936&search_text=global%20civil%20society

by dunk Fri May 21, 2004 23:03

more stuff put in today
more tomorow, lots more

stuff in today
-gandhi short biography with lots of top pix
-"fences and windows" noami klein book
-"you dont have to be mad to be creative, but it helps" - sunday times article exploring relationship between mental illness and the artistic temperment, re the book "touched with fire"
-indymedia festival booklet

tomorows "communication action"
-indymedia stand around grafton st, giving out printflares and flyers.
color fun creative celebrational space
friends coming with color, dancing, face paint, carnival
-city wander, flyering
-arrive in project @ 1.30 for screening of "globalisation and the media"- must see film
-O`connell st and gpo visits
-wander up moore st (heart of the city and example of changing ireland-its great, i love it)
-garden of rememberence, rest @ water, bushwalk chat
-hughlane art gallery - artistic ahimsa chat
-teachers club for grassroots "from mayday to bush" open public meeting 2.30
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65004


artistic ahimsa
"artistic ahimsa" is a phrase i put together today.
ahimsa is non violent action, a word from the jain religion, used by gandhi.
it is a spiritual exercise
it is also a chance to DO more artistic stuff, more creativity

these systems are exciting and fun, while also a real method of attemptig to change things.
the fact that they are exciting makes them appealing, therefor more can come and participate.

i want the demos to become more playful and positive
up with the laughing leprachaun bloc
up with acting the bolllix


eg- bush walk
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65106&condense_comments=false#comment75810

globalisation and the media
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64293#s4
and
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61637&search_text=globalisation%20and%20the%20media

by Anonymous Fri May 21, 2004 15:34

I'l be sure to have a look and spread the word.

by Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group - Indymedia Ireland Fri May 21, 2004 15:06

.

by dunk Fri May 21, 2004 13:49

up with this sort of thing

indymedia- process

by DUNK Thu May 20, 2004 17:20

open system

indymedia stuff in dublin art gallery

by dunk Thu May 20, 2004 17:09

informing
and
doing

ran reads

art gallery as communication space

frantic rush

the lads help out

indymedia boards

by dunk - fuspey Thu May 20, 2004 14:32

put stuff in last night

indymedia-irish social forum- FUSPEY (fun sustainable peaceful existence)- EASA (european architectural student assembly)-
dublin grassroots network

1-irish social forum booklet with some posters within
2-printflare (pre mayday, april issue?)
3-indymedia process board (1.5x.6metre baord with printed pages)
4-indymedia content (1.5x.3metre horizontal board with "facts vs facts" and "Fortress Dublin?(DGN dossier)
5-FUSPEY filmboard for "fuspey film 1"- fillawelly poster- communication action photo @ mayday 2004

more later and pics


IRISH SOCIAL FORUM
http://www.irishsocialforum.org/
printflare (indymedia free paper)
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/apr2004/05pfapr2004.pdf
Fortress Dublin?
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64958&search_text=fortress%20dublin
Facts vs Facts
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64799
"fuspey film 1"
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2003/06/273076.wmv
from imc-oxford
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/oxford/2003/06/273074.html
FILLAWELLY WANDER
http://www.geocities.com/fuspey/FUSPEY_fillawelly.html

by pc Wed May 19, 2004 22:22

when its simple exhibit a table and filing cabinet with some unsual art books and then all the usual leaflest from the past while.

a nice collection of photos from a number of recent demos of various kind presumbly taken by pg i m guessing

can't find any more info it, this is the only site i could find...

http://www.geocities.com/piercesar/

its a nice attempt i would have imagined what they would have done is gone around to loads of cities and display each set with all the otehrs as the archive builds up ... but doesn't seem to be that....