My perspective from the front line

by Karl Sun May 02, 2004 12:46 Dublin

Yes i was with the bloc aswell i saw little or no violence from the bloc.

The only violence i saw from protestors was the people in the back throwing things but we obiviously saw alot more from the garda.

I really wish those idiot drunks wouldn't have tried to line up with us they just broke the continuity of the lines and made it weaker

by de spy in the sky Sun May 02, 2004 12:57

I guess the old adage is true.
There are 3 sides to every story.
Their side,
Your side
and the facts.

I am still waiting to hear an unbiased version of the third.

by me Sun May 02, 2004 13:01

nobody has an unbiased opinion about this issue. there can be no absolute collection of facts unless they include real time descriptions of the actions and motivs of every person there on the day and this is impossible

by SR Sun May 02, 2004 13:05

I haven't seen or heard any news reports other than what's online about yesterday.. If anyone has heard or seen anything, was anything mentioned about the reports and photographers being deliberately targetted from the very start with the water cannons. The photographers standing on the right handside on the housing walls were the first group of people to be blasted.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Sun May 02, 2004 13:23

and where do you expect to hear that from?
by me Sunday, May 2 2004, 12:01pm


nobody has an unbiased opinion about this issue............................


First of all I agree with the perspective aboveFirst of all I agree with the perspective above completely. There is no unbiased story the most that can be expected is that people make their biases clear in advance!

I was well back from the front (mainly through fear!) but the view expressed by David from within the bloc concurs with what I saw. They went forward with arms linked and with masks but with no offensive weapons of any kind. My only fear was that the cops would over react and start cracking down on every ones’ skulls which would have been terrible. Also, I think, it would have meant that we had broken faith with people when we promised a good, noisy day out. Clearly and I will acknowledge it – those (in the bloc) were quite brave people. However I felt given the odds where so completely and utterly disproportionate that it was tokenistic at best.

Moving on from the padded bloc my main gripe is with the drunken fools throwing things especially in the early stages. I’m sorry but this is just wrong. Most of the cans actually landed among demonstrators. They had no effect on the cops and just give the media and the police the justification for all the crap in the build up to these events. I tried to stop it as did other people but really I would like to see no tolerance for missiles been flung from behind a crowd EVER.

(The media, in the main, were right and the front poking their cameras into any hint of trouble like ravaged junkies finally catching a glimpse of a low quality fix to tide them over till the next big score. Sky news were especially nauseating – looping the same couple of clips over and over. But then they are never anything other then COMPLETELY predictable with their May Mayhem crap.)

OVER ALL though – the violence was minor enough (while not minimising the hurt to the people injured) and came pretty much entirely from the riot cops. The march itself, the de-privatisation of Fitzwillaim sq etc – were great and I thought it was a good day. I also thought (aside from a few drunken idiots) we handled ourselves well as a group, people were calm under pressure and the retreat never turned into a rout.

Conor

by G Sun May 02, 2004 14:15

What exactly is the point of trying to push through police lines? Do you expect them to have a sudden change of heart and kindly step aside? As far as i can see, all it does is give the cops an excuse to batton people and feed the media frenzy about violent rioters etc.

by Stoney_jedi - just me Sun May 02, 2004 14:55 stoney_jedi at hotmail dot com

was with the protesters from 2.30 and the whole day seemed like a good craic,the best part being in the park sitting down in the sun.I think if they were bent on trouble they wouldnt have walked the legs off everyone,because when i got to the front line i was wrecked,blisters on me feet!yeah so all the boys in black all linked and walked down tried to push through,then i saw fight between some of them and a camera man(well i think he was a camera man)well anyway then the riot police came out and started making trouble and everyone responded(the way we all knew everyone would)for my own part when i saw the water cannons coming out,i moved back instead of getting soaked..the people their werent that violent and for the best part of the day it was a carnival atmosphere!:O)

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Sun May 02, 2004 15:03

Liek I say I wasn't up the front trying to get through BUT.....

You have to appreciate that we built this city, work in this city, live in this city, we (and I include people here from abroad especially) do every bullshit menial, underpaid job in this city. BUT we have no say in how it is run and then they tell us we can't even walk around in it? "You can mind our kids, feed us hambugers, wash our cars - but when "we" have our big banquet you get the fuck of the streets of your own city -your OPINION is of no interest to us"

The 25 heads of state inside were being wined and dined at massive expense with our tax money. I think people have a legtimate right to bring their protest to these people and if they need to push through police lines firmly, but non-violently to do it so be it.

My problem on the day was that the odds were completely stacked against us and that there wasn't much point.

But the principal remains that its our city , not the Garda riot squad, not the vultures of the mainstream media, not the unrecallable leaders of the EU or the faceless and corupt bureaucrats in Brussells.

Conor

by Alan Sun May 02, 2004 15:43 alan_james_byrne at yahoo dot ie

You wanted a riot.

You wanted confrontation, you wanted pictures of big bad cops baterring peaceful protestors.

The Gardai were happy, more like a carnival, good happy atmosphere. You see a tall garda walking through the crowd, about 6 foot five, talking to people smiling, people getting their picture taken with him. Keep it low key, no need for any trouble.

Then occasionaly you see the guy with the scarf hiding his/ her face. High on rebellion, the anonynmity.

Then the march to Farmleigh. A line of Gardai, unarmed, no batons. Not being confrontational, just doing their job, in the interests of public safety and security, you can't go any further.

The marchers try to FORCE their way through the lines. The gardai are forced to escalate, deploy the riot police, protect and serve.

What do you see, projectiles thrown at our police. Blackshirts, people with their face covered attacking the police line, provocating and agitating.

The water canons work. Break up the lines, scatter the crowd. Ten minutes and the worst is over.

I don't want to see riot police, I don't want to see water canons. But I do not want to see peacful protestors atack the functioning of the state and our gardai.

by undercurrents Sun May 02, 2004 16:19

Nonviolent direct action has a long history. Anyone remember Ghandi lining up against the British empire to be beaten time and time again? result was the empire soon collapsed

Martin Luther King- Black people are just people so why not be equal?...his marches were attacked by US cops but King never gave up and look what he won for equality.

Pushing your way into the Phoenix park is reminding the state that we wont just roll over to their violent power.

These are OUR streets and lives and if we honestly believe that privatisation will only make more people suffer, then we have to do what we can in a nonviolent way to change things.

I congratulate every single person who took to the streets and highlighted the abuse of EU power.

THe irish media and police in Dublin followed the same tactics of fear raising as i have seen in london,prague, Washington DC and Genoa.

Lets hope for a better world in the future

paulo
undercurrents.org

by doodle Sun May 02, 2004 16:20

I wasnt at the protest march
I watched it on sky. Euro news had nothing about it.

I suppose once you were soaked there was no going back. It looked like people were having fun then with the water cannons, dodging them like a school yard game

I think the water cannon thing is a good development - what do others think. Better to get wet than to get your head split open by the cops.

Ive never seen so many fat, bored cops yesterday - what a waste of tax money

I think the EU people should have invited some of the protesters in and asked them what they were in favour of and not just what they are against. Most of the protestors have things to say about what they are for. It might have been good press for all.

This is supposed to be a democracy??

It really is twisted and makes the politicians look like gangsters when they have to spend 5 million on a wall and get 5000 cops and 2500 soldiers to prevent the people getting a message to our elected representitives

by kneejerk Sun May 02, 2004 16:33

"I think the EU people should have invited some of the protesters in and asked them what they were in favour of and not just what they are against. Most of the protestors have things to say about what they are for. It might have been good press for all."

you can't negotiate with terrorists.

maybe the E.U.leaders should have invited protestors to tell their side but they would never dream of doing it. They might possibly invite RBB in for a chat because they know what he'd have to say, but they wouldn't talk to a spokesperson for anarchists who had the chance to gather a mandate from all anarchists who have an interest in such a meeting (many of them might simply refuse to meet with these people.

a meeting would never change anything, they don't want to know, if they did there is every opportunity for them to get informed.

by KatieMutated Sun May 02, 2004 17:02

Before i began please excuse the choppy way this is typed as im suffering from concussion.
A friend of mine and myself where 2 of the first people, excluding the media, to get up the front. This is while the gardai where still lined up. The bloc had only arrived, when the riot police were moved infront. There was no crush from anyone to begin with from what I could see but then a few people sat down to the right giving the peace sign thats when the crush began as the riot police began to push through these people including some of the media . On the left of me the Bloc started to march in, i was not apart of this but i have alot of respect for what they did. They had NO weapons unless you call holding a banner an offensive weapon. I managed to get towards the middle of the street and thats when the water cannons started the first whack hit my head and knocked me over or so I was told i cant recall really, i just know they broke the bow that was on my head. It came as a shock that they decided to use the cannons when they did, as there seemed to be no real agro that called for that. Also what I found creepy was the police and there lil mini-cams they had taking note of all the faces of the protesters. They got my gob on it thats for sure as I asked a simple question "can you justify your violence? there is teenagers up there using there right to protest and you are physically abusing them, abusing children?" thats when the police from the side lines pointed me out and went for me. I realise now what justifys it, having an opinion and asking questions.

by Wilzer Sun May 02, 2004 17:02

The pictures clearly show front row protestors kicking and throw empty glass bottles at the cops. And these people were right in front of the riot Gardai. MAny of you just look for a reaction from the police and then harp on about ploice brutality and heavy handed tactics. But you'll be clutching at straws. The Cops did use their batons but only when attacked themselves. Let's face it, you didn't get the numbers you wanted, the support you wanted, or the reaction from police you wanted. You did get Publicity but sure isn't all that one sided anyhow. Facts.

by Wilzer Sun May 02, 2004 17:42

Let's tell the truth here. Many protesters went to Heuston Station and had a street party with music and everyone relaxed, even the police. No trouble. There was no trouble throughout the day as the protesters marched and walked around Dublin on a surprisingly bright and warm day. Gardai were there in force yet....no trouble. Come sun set MASKED protesters and others up around Ashtown Gate. They all know they weren't allowed into the park. But they still try. So are the cops meant to just let you in to the park, so you can "deliver your message to the Farmleigh". There were certain elements, out for trouble. You know it, we all know it. TV coverage shows protesters kicking the riot gardai and hurling stones, bottles, and sticks into the cops. That ain't peaceful. That's not what Martin Luther did or Gandi. I don't remember them using any force. Do you? Yes, there were alot of cops. If there wasn't you may have got into the park. Is that not a fact? Water Cannon. Did it not dispurse the protestors and drive them back? Yes it did.
Did any cops hit out at protesters who were in a peaceful march where no violence was present? No they did not. Did the cops geer or verbally intimidate protesters? No they did not. The only force used by cops on the day was necessary to keep the protesters out of the park which. again I must stress, the protesters knew was closed off. Did any peaceful protesters get injured while having their peaceful protests at Heuston Station? No, they didn't. Did some protesters continually walk up to Police barriers to see where the weakest areas or gaps in police lines were so they could try getting into the park? Yes, they did.

Fact. Peaceful protesters, enjoying the day and not confronting the cops were not batton charged.
Fact. Only violence that took place was due to the fact that protesters, some masked, and locals with one to many and feeling brave tried to get into the park. Gardai did their job.
Fact. There was no baton charge. Riot gardai did use their batons when protesters continued to try and gain access into the park and only after the 'ordinary' gardai line was being continually pushed by protesters.
Fact. The gardai slowly walked the protesters back inch by inch. Is that a charge? Honestly, is it? Cos that's not what I call a charge?
Fact. Protesters claim that cameras were on them and photographing them. Protesters were also taking pictures throughout the day, many which I'm sure will end up on this site, showing the one sided view. Pointed at the cops with batons drawn. How about taking pictures of fellow protestors as they try and drop kick the riot shields and showing the fingers at the police. Or did that not happen? Maybe I was seeing things. Maybe Sky News' coverage was all wrong.
Fact. Protesters have the right to protest and God knows this enlargment should be questioned. However, your whole point is again being overshadowed by certain violent protesters. Until you disassociate yourselves from violence and march peacefully, your points will not come across and you'll only be linked to violence with little gain.

by lina Sun May 02, 2004 18:50

"You have to appreciate that we built this city, work in this city, live in this city, we (and I include people here from abroad especially) do every bullshit menial, underpaid job in this city. BUT we have no say in how it is run "

yes you do , you can vote . stop pretending you are living in North Korea .

by paul - none Sun May 02, 2004 19:42

we do the menial jobs and eh.... we lecture in the academic institutions such as ucd for big wages - dont pretend the wsm are all menial workers , cmon now.

by anne Sun May 02, 2004 23:47

i do vote, unfortunately, i still find that my voice and my opinions are not heard. i write to my local 'elected representatives' on a regular basis but rarely get any response let alone witness any actual changes in the policies or legislation i am opposed to. we don't live in North Korea, we live in the republic of ireland but still our demands for equality and social justice are ignored, democracy as it is practiced in this country does not provide a forum for debate or discussion on issues that are important to irish citizens, those in power tend to favour the opinions of a small minority of wealthy elites compared to the majority of the population that they are supposed to represent. protests and demonstrations have become a useful way to show them that we do not accept this situation and since they don't (as yet) seem to be listening we need to build this movement and make them sit up and take notice. if they did actually listen to us and take our suggestions seriously they would find it very hard to disagree, we are fighting for a better, more equal world, free from poverty and oppression (who could argue against that?). unfortunately the majority of politicians sitting in Dáil Eireann protect the self-interest of corporate industry and ignore the real social issues we try to raise awareness about, its a terrible shame but thats the way it is...

by Alan Baird Mon May 03, 2004 01:28 alanbaird5 at hotmail dot com

In answer to an unbiased report, the Gardai have been aching for a chance to show their counterparts around the world that when it cimes to beating unarmed fellow members of society, they can be just as brutal and provocative. All you have to do is check arrest's coming up to the march , for days before they have being brutalizing people they deem unacceptable. Irish youths who have being pulled in and questioned are they Wombles, because they are not wearing "standard issue" clothing. These same kids who I work with are in front of Central Bank every week skate boarding, listening to music and meeting with friends( real Carlos the jackal types if you ask me). If we do live in a democrasy, then when is our right to demonstrate allowed. Last year a hundred thousand marched against the war in Iraq, in Pheonix Park, supporters of that war sat back eating the best cuisine and finest Cristal. While we know the Iragi people don't even have drinking water, so if this seem's biased, then maybe you have already made up your own mind despite the fact's, but I for one will keep demonstrating and asking government to be accountable for action's that cause the genocide of another race, whatever their reason. Try going for a day with out using your gas and electricity and walk for few miles for a drink of water, and we still will not get an insight to the horrors inflicted on an occupied people, but let's lighten up it's summer time, let's sit back have a pint of the good stuff and sing rebel songs of a bygone race of honourable men(who would have used a different force against the police yesterday) to our American masters. We are a neutral country, yet war planes are being refuelled here and a nurse who has worked as an aid worker abroad and is a Mother is locked up for terrorist offences. Open your eyes, the only bias we should have is to let another human being have the right to self determination.
Slan a chairde.

by Rob Mon May 03, 2004 01:34

Representing the people means having the peoples support ... If you do really represent 'the people' then how come come 'the people' don't think to vote for you? If you do believe in democracy, and shelter under it's protection of the individual's right of association and free speech, then can you not think of democracy for a moment and draw some conclusions as to why the likes of Richard Boyd Barrett never gets elected? It's because you don't represent the people, you represent a tiny minority, and use thuggery to try to gain press for your lame anti-capitalist polices.

The 25 leaders can demonstrate through election the support of the majority of 450m people, you can claim the support of 600-2000 protesters, no more. Not in my name. I don't want masked marchers, reminiscent of the paramilitary displays of Norther Ireland, speaking on my behalf. Lucky then that elected governments and not ye, speak in my name, isn't it? Long live democracy, where you are entirely free to air your views, but should the be crazy, they get overlooked by the people at election time.

by Ciarzo Mon May 03, 2004 02:07

Why do you have such a strong desire to be represented by others? Were the people with the guts to protest what they believe in, claiming to speak for you?
The only persons most of them would claim to represent is themselves. They don't want to represent you, they want you to represent yourself. Unfortunately too many people like yourself are fooled into thinking that the casting of a meaningless vote once every four years, means you actually have any say in the running of our society.
If the protestors yesterday don't represent you, you can be certain that your wishes are not high on the agenda of our friends in the grey suits. It's about time you learned to represent yourself.
That's what those people were doing yesterday - representing themselves, because nobody else can do it. Indeed nobody else should try to do it. Yet you have the nerve to call them 'thugs', despite the fact that they were not the ones armed with dangerous weapons and a free reign to weild them. As usual that role belongs to the state.
Your hypocricy is showing pal, time to cop yourself on.

by NeoRepublican Mon May 03, 2004 02:20

Sky News great aint it?I tell you for a minture I thought tehre was a reveloution going on, after they explained that the march started from GPO, "the scene of all Irish reveloutions" aparently.

But the interesting thing aboutt ehir pictures was it showed people from the area going past the garda and attackin protesters, or so they claimed. Speically some chap in an italia top.

Anyone have mroe info on this?

by we can vote but Mon May 03, 2004 02:42

US military planes landing at Shannon should have been stopped.

There should have been at least some meaning ful debate and then we should have had a referendum to vote on it.

Ireland, like many countries who were taken into war by their governments, would have had a majority against the war

Instead we are dragged in by the Fianna Fail Mafia and the PD nazi party and all for the sake of a few dirty dollars soaked in blood.

I dont feel I live in a democracy - money votes, people dont really count anymore

Congrats to all who demostrated at the weekend and made people stop and rethink about the way the world is going (into the back pocket of the rich)

Slan

by johnny Mon May 03, 2004 14:43

so these are the guys everyone were talking about before the marches now their the guys everyone is laughing at for a pityfull display on saturday. well done to the gardai if people cause trouble within a peacefull crowd what do you want them to do as their fellow gardai are been pelted with missiles (and yes there was missiles thrown i know i was there) ask that element to step out so they can single them out.everyone is saying the gardai used excessive force to quickly dont forget they had another force they could have used if they wanted THE MILITARY and god help the marchers if these were left loose as i was talking to a soldier friend of mine and believe me they were not happy about spending a holiday weekend in dublin to do a policeing job so well done the gardai for not using all the force that was available to them.
p.s. any oragnised group would have marched on shannon on saturday the media would still have been there and they would have achieved a lot more.

by Nick B - Lancaster Anarchist Group Mon May 03, 2004 20:55

It is possible to break through police lines to further a protest... It happened on several occasions during the print workers strike at Wapping in the 80s... Remember the Poll Tax riot??... and more recently I experienced a successful RTS at the g8 in Birmingham (May whenever it was)... a MAM march in London (where we broke out of a police cordon) to carry the protest to Pall Mall... and numerous local actions where breaking through police lines is possible... the most recent being a protest at a council election ballot where a nazi was standing... there is a point! Sometimes it is hard or impossible - but not always...

love and solidarity

NB xx

by Wilzer Mon May 03, 2004 21:35

I am as scared and concerned as most of the protesters about the expansion of Euro and the escalating gap between the rich and the poor. I know that the world is in trouble and that we suched voice our concerns over this and over the way the media is living in the back pockets of the powerful, but all these reports from the incidents on Saturday evening about baton charges and "no protesters being violent" is rubbish. You know that many protesters were violent and abusive, yet you deny this even when it was captured on film. You label the media as one sided etc. and you just do the same. Many more would follow and listen if you voiced the truth and alienated overselves from these violent groups. Your views and concerns are of vital importance and should be addressed as soon as possible. It is true that we are not in control and that "they have taken control of us". Many more know this but will not join the ranks of people who really are just using the same propaganda tactics, but on a smaller scale. Please, please, please, report the truth. If you mess up, own up. If you make mistakes, tell us. We will be willing to follow because we believe in the cause, but not the way the information and pictures ignore many facts. Peacefully protests will gain you credability and support. Violence will give you attention. Short lived attention and then the badge of "young hooligans" with your really message and concerns lost.
Thanking you.

by me Tue May 04, 2004 00:37

but what do you propose?

by Junior - unaffiliated Tue May 11, 2004 19:19 dillon_402 at hotmail dot com -------------- -----------------

a bit of strategic thinking would be nice. Absolutely sick of protest myopia, ie, where's there's cameras we'll be there. The whole point is to go where they're not expecting you. We could have had the Shannon runway for hours!!!!!!! But no, we had to go to Dublin for the most overdetermined protest march in Irish history. Let's be a bit imaginative people. I know there's moles everywhere but hardcore groupsucles from relevant direct action groups could have still converged on Shannon and accessed the place through the industrial estate.