Beware the bards! Dunphy gets a roasting.

by fred - . Fri Nov 07, 2003 16:25

Michael whats your opinion on the brown envelopes? What do you think of Berties blank cheques and should corrupt politicians be sent to prison? Seeing that theirs no problem sending them for peacefully protesting.

by Michael Turley Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:09

"€9bn (again questionable with Private money being included) is simply not enough. "

€9bn is €9bn no matter what way you look at it. I accept your point that the health service is not what we would like it to be. However, it seems to me that health service provision is not a problem peculiar to Ireland. Reorganisation and investment are needed - the money is being put into the health service and I would refer you to the Hanly report as regards organisational matters.

"How much has the population increased? In terms of percentages there is a general trend for jobs to be going down."

But unemployment is at 4.8% (one of the lowest globally - the eurozone average is 8.9%) so I don't accept your argument.

"My alternative is properly funded publicly built roads and for the roads to remain under public ownership with no tolls."

€1.25bn has been allocated for road building. No matter where it comes from it is still going into the infrastructure.

"I notice you mention nothing about the rip off in the insurance industry?"

This is also being addressed. The Taoiseach has sent out a message to the professions that they will have to reform their practices and provide better value for money. Private car insurance costs are decreasing.

"Its the pervailing wisdom among the working class, go into any working class community and talk to people about this you will discover that what I said is seen to be true."

I'm well acquainted with "working class communities". I live in a "working class community" and I've canvassed for other candidates in the south inner city. Unfortunately for the socialist movement there is a strong FF vote amongst "ordinary working class people" probably because peoples experience is that when they needed something done they went to their local FF councillor because he/she was the person who would get it done.

"There is a crisi in the North and there is a polarisation on the gorund that will likely be reflected in these elections. It will be hard to restart an executive. Why do you choose to hide away from the facts?"

No one is hiding from the facts. I just don't think there is a place for whinging negativity when it comes to something as important as the NI peace process. FF, through Martin Mansergh and others, were instrumental in bringing about the peace process. The peace process will continue and the benefits are obvious.

You are obviously passionate about your politics and I am glad we have this chance to debate reasonably. I was beginning to despair that indymedia was solely visited by student malcontents permanently stuck in an inarticulate rage.

by lahunda Thu Nov 06, 2003 23:09

"Inflation is at 2.9% and investment in the health service is over €9 billion. It is true that the health service is in a state of disrepair (as it is in the UK and elsewhere) which is why the Hanly report has been delivered. There is no magic wand which will turn the health service around."

Helath inflation is much more than 2.9%. €9bn (again questionable with Private money being included) is simply not enough. Public patients are still on massive waiting lists, FF promised to end waiting lists in 2 years, you've a year to go, will there be no waiting lists by next may? I think not. FF have also cut spending on medical training by €150m which will further add to the problems in nursing shortages. The fact is that the health service is in bits because of years of neglect, which party ws in power for most of the last 20 years? Fianna Fail. The health crisis is caused by FF.


"Since 1997 the number at work has been raised by 400,000 to 1.8 million and unemployment is at 4.8% (the eurozone average is 8.9%)"

How much has the population increased? In terms of percentages there is a general trend for jobs to be going down.


"So, what is your alternative solution for building a modern road infrastructure?"

My alternative is properly funded publicly built roads and for the roads to remain under public ownership with no tolls. I notice you mention nothing about the rip off in the insurance industry?

"Less well-off pensioners are not obliged to pay waste management charges (he means Bin Tax). Pensioners I have spoken to are glad of the increase."

Bin tax is not the only way you took back any increases, what about increased council housing rents as one example? The waiver system is a joke, there are plenty of people that are in poverty in effect but do not qualify for a waiver. If you have a very small private pension you will not qualify. You really have no idea about how people actually live do you? Waivers are simply not adequate. Also, for a large chunk of bin services in the country, if not a majority, there is no waiver scheme as the service is privitised.


"Tying workers into deals with the bosses has been probably the most negative thing to happen in modern times for the workers movement."

"That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but it is not the prevailing wisdom."

Its the pervailing wisdom among the working class, go into any working class community and talk to people about this you will discover that what I said is seen to be true. For years workers were told that they should hold back their pay demands while the rich and powerful ruling classes made millions and billions. Now we are being told that we must 'tighten our belts' and accept thing like bin tax and attacks on our public services.

"Your comments on NI are unhelpful."
They are true. There is a crisi in the North and there is a polarisation on the gorund that will likely be reflected in these elections. It will be hard to restart an executive. Why do you choose to hide away from the facts?

I note that you have completely ignored a load of things that I brought up. Could you please return and answer them. What about the freeze on public sector employment? What about your upcoming attack on pension rights? What about your underfunding of schools? What about your plans to reintroduce fees?

by Michael Turley Thu Nov 06, 2003 18:26

"This is not enough and is not keeping up with inflation. It is also from a very low base."

Inflation is at 2.9% and investment in the health service is over €9 billion. It is true that the health service is in a state of disrepair (as it is in the UK and elsewhere) which is why the Hanly report has been delivered. There is no magic wand which will turn the health service around.

"Employment compared to a few years ago is down and there is a freeze on new employment in most of the public sector."

Since 1997 the number at work has been raised by 400,000 to 1.8 million and unemployment is at 4.8% (the eurozone average is 8.9%). As a nation we are moving away from production floor to higher skilled employent which means we less susceptible to transnational low skill competitiveness.

"Do you really think that penalty points have been responsible for safer driving?"

Yes, and the statistics would prevent empirical evidence to support that.

"It will lead to rip off fares and tolls as well as ineffecencies in the building and running of the services."

So, what is your alternative solution for building a modern road infrastructure?

"By how much exactly? a couple of quid, which was taken away again with increased rent in local authorites and in taxes such as bin tax."

Less well-off pensioners are not obliged to pay waste management charges. Pensioners I have spoken to are glad of the increase.

"Tying workers into deals with the bosses has been probably the most negative thing to happen in modern times for the workers movement."

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but it is not the prevailing wisdom.

Your comments on NI are unhelpful.

by lahunda Thu Nov 06, 2003 17:14

* Health funding has increased by 12%.
This is not enough and is not keeping up with inflation. It is also from a very low base. So this figure does not really mean much. I'd like to ask Michael whether or not he or a relative or friend has experienced the health service as a public patient without VHI or BUPA?

* Employment increased by 6% between June 2002-June 2003.
This figure is again questionable. 6% of what exactly? the over all workforce? compared to last year? The fact is that the economy was growing at 12% per year and now is at about 1-2%. This is while FF were in office. Employment compared to a few years ago is down and there is a freeze on new employment in most of the public sector.

* Safer roads through penalty points.
Do you really think that penalty points have been responsible for safer driving? The fact is that FF still stand over a situation where young drivers must pay about €4,000 in insurance just for a year!

* €1.25 billion has been allocated for road building.

Most of which is private money. It will lead to rip off fares and tolls as well as ineffecencies in the building and running of the services.

* Pensions have increased.
By how much exactly? a couple of quid, which was taken away again with increased rent in local authorites and in taxes such as bin tax. This government are now beginning to make noises about how 'we can no longer afford pensions'. This government will in time launch an attack on our pension rights by making us work longer or by making us pay twice through private pensions.

* Investment in education has increased by 9%
Another dodgy figure. Since when? what are you measuring exactly? Like in education any increase is from a very low base and is probably not keeping up with inflation. The fact is that schools around the country are closing, falling to bits, laying off teachers, having to stop certain subjects and are depending on 'voluntary' contributions and charity to survive. FF have also hit 3rd level by implementing a cut of about 7% and have ended all capitla projects in the pipeline. FF have also increased by 69% registration fees on students and will probably bring back fees.

* Agreement between Employers and Unions (Sustaining Progress - Social Partnership Agreement).
Tying workers into deals with the bosses has been probably the most negative thing to happen in modern times for the workers movement. It has mena that workers now nearly always now break the law if they take industrial action. The leaderships of the unions are allowed run roughshod over their membership and union democracy and a hole layer of activists have become disenchanted with their unions. It is time that unions break with partnership and that the members of the unions reclaim them and kick out the careerists and bureacrats like Begg.


* Elections in NI.
Nothing to do with FF really. It is the UK governemnt who decides this. And in any case the elections will just be another sectarian headcount and there will probably be no executive following the election. In Ni things have become more and more polarised on the ground, this will probably be reflected in the election results. Will FF claim credit for this?

by Damn Butter Thu Nov 06, 2003 16:53

* Health funding has increased by 12%. - Have you been in an emergency room lately?
* Employment increased by 6% between June 2002-June 2003. -How many of those jobs were secure, unionised or non sevice sector/minimum wage?
* Safer roads through penalty points - Tell that to the hundreds mown down by motorists each year
* €1.25 billion has been allocated for road building. - EU Structural funding from Brussels
* Pensions have increased. - They are still paltry
* Investment in education has increased by 9% - By “online teacher training”, industrial action by INTO only a matter of time
* Agreement between Employers and Unions (Sustaining Progress - Social Partnership Agreement). Pay increase more than eroded by inflation and threatened by benchmarking
* Elections in NI. – Unionist veto and pull out, contempt for de Chastelain

Roll on the local elections

by Ruairi Thu Nov 06, 2003 16:37

Michael, indeed the government has made positive gains in some respectives. However what we're getting at is that it's hard to thank an arsonist when he brings you little pots of water whilst your house is on fire.

There's a much bigger picture than the little world of claiming and retaining power.

by Terry - None Thu Nov 06, 2003 13:42

Because he works for a private run TV station -TV3. Since the purpose of the State is to serve the very wealthy, powerful and elite and only media outlets that tow the line are permitted, then all is clear. TV3 is yet another small but important piece in the capitalist propaganda machine, since it is owned by them and run by them.

Whatever about Dunphy, he is merely an employee and like employees they don't really have a lot of say over their job roles/functions/actions. Dunphy had no other choice but to do what is necessary and whether he was told or not, he is an intelligent enough person to know when rocking the boat at the wrong moment with the wrong person would have immediate and direct consequences on his position. He is a well paid media person and he is not likely to 'recklessly' throw that away.

To attack the Taoiseach and ask too many difficult questions would have been just too much.

That's why we don't have pirate radio stations covering activist and alternative media stuff or asking the right questions and quoting the relevant statistics. If anything came on the airways at a sustained rate that questioned the whole edific, it would be shut down within hours and those responsible arrested, fined and jailed. Hmm? Is that not what happened to the Bin Tax protesters? I guess they are challenging the right of big Capital to screw us all.

Pirate radio music stations pose no such threat and stir almost nothing in the public mind. Therefore there is less haste to shut them down.

by Michael Turley Thu Nov 06, 2003 13:23

And congratulations are due to the government, of course, for bringing the rate of inflation down (as has already been correctly pointed out).

by Michael Turley Thu Nov 06, 2003 13:21

"He tells us 'inflation is still a problem'. Err, no. It is still too high of course, but it is now (for the last quarter) standing at 2.9%. This is the lowest it has been for 3 years!"

Surely if inflation is still too high then it is a problem?

by Mags Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:34

He tells us 'inflation is still a problem'. Err, no. It is still too high of course, but it is now (for the last quarter) standing at 2.9%. This is the lowest it has been for 3 years!

by Michael Turley Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:05

* Health funding has increased by 12%.
* Employment increased by 6% between June 2002-June 2003.
* Safer roads through penalty points.
* €1.25 billion has been allocated for road building.
* Pensions have increased.
* Investment in education has increased by 9%
* Agreement between Employers and Unions (Sustaining Progress - Social Partnership Agreement).
* Elections in NI.

Inflation, admittedly, is a problem but it is being addressed. You should also bear in mind, that considering the global economic uncertainties Ireland has remained relatively unscathed.

by Damn Butter Wed Nov 05, 2003 18:49

Michael, you are probably right "...that things are not as bad as self-interested negative publicists would like us to think? "

Things are worse, as the following contributions to Ireland made by the FF/PD Junta since 2001 show;

VHI increased by 44%
ESB increased by 13.5%
Eircom Bills increased by 6.3%
Bus Fares increased by 9%
TV Licence increased by 40%
First Time buyers Housing Grant abolished
Speculator Tax abolished
Hospital cutbacks
School Cutbacks
Inflation rip-off/ Celtic Badger
Ahern ditches neutrality for NATO (“So what? I changed my mind”)
Gardai incompetence
Planning Corruption
PD assault on Social Policy
Traffic Chaos LUAS Rip-off

You represent a party that got c.35% of the vote from a turnout of >60%, that subsequently handed economic policy to the PDs who got much less than 5% of the vote. Democracy FF style, and jail anyone who protests.

by F Wed Nov 05, 2003 13:14

Congrats to the poster of this doggerel and well done to Rhymin Simon. As someone who reads 2 or 3 local papers every week as well as the Nationals I can see that even in traditional FF strongholds the opposition to this govt is growing. The only exception seems to be on FF controlled commercial local radio. There are plenty of other outlets for critical and alternative voices especially the community radio stations, check out radiowaves.fm for a full listing.

by Moi Wed Nov 05, 2003 13:05

Please don't post pornographic images on indymedia.

by Ruairi Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:23

Kinda gives me the impression of the new Charlie grooming the new Bertie.

Then again Michael, anything is possible!

by . Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:02

Now what could you pair want us to think?

ps. photo from Michaels website.
and a very good one it is too :.)

A pair of self-interested positve politicians?

by Michael Turley Wed Nov 05, 2003 10:39

...that things are not as bad as self-interested negative publicists would like us to think?