Picket on this conference Friday: A political union now? Towards a more integrated Europe - A Panel of European Affairs Ministers

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Apr 22, 2012 14:07

..that spoonful of subsidiarity shit they fed us to help the earlier medicine go down?

Stealth mission-creep to totalitarianian dictation by financial technocracy...mission accomplished...line up the lobotomised turkeys..another vote for Christmas pends.

by Dermot Lacey Sun Apr 22, 2012 20:54

Do you lot EVER do anything constructive.

Have you lot ever created jobs, built a house, got someone a house, built a community centre, established a community project. Or do you all just spend your lives protesting and moaning about those of us who often imperfectly try to all of the above and achieve them sometimes.

by Justin Morahan Sun Apr 22, 2012 21:48

Maybe "us lot" don't have power to create jobs, build houses, build community centres, establish community projects.

Maybe we recall that we gave that power, indirectly, to people who have broken promise after promise since they came to power.

Maybe we know that protest (not moaning) is the honourable thing for dis-empowered people to do when we are being propelled towards an agenda of "salt the poor and middle classes but protect the rich and privileged" - by those who name this perfidious agenda "Getting the Country Back On Its Feet".

by Dermot Lacey Mon Apr 23, 2012 08:57

And Maybe you lot are just too lazy to do something constructive. It is always easier to blame other people than to try and do something positive.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Apr 23, 2012 09:48

I've worked on building sites from Australia to Dublin to the Channel islands and Germany...I've worked in factories, bars, restaurants, fishing boats, ferries, dry-goods freighters and Rhine tankers, cradles spray-painting high rises and roofing in London...oil refineries...surveying in the aussie outback...sold books and machinery, driven trucks and given driving lessons....washed dishes and pulled a few strokes in emergencies...I've also been reduced to stealing food when I couldn't get work, and been blacked from work for aggitating for humane and decent conditions...

Oh and I've worked in community hospitals and done home hospice assistant, and raised funds..and helped run youth clubs when working as a lone parent....I've had a busy as well as an idler time...and sold my scurrillous doggerel in the streets and bars when the tide of bills rose above the nostrils..

I now find myself disemployed by a bunch of white collar criminals, and while I'm in that state and capable of work I'll work against them, despite the lousy wages. Not so long ago I was told by these same experts to '..upskill and come to grips with the technologies of the future...'. Thats what I'm doing and how I got to discover this forum..and now the minister for newspeak tells me he's introducing a tax on THAT.
Enough about mise. I've actually skipped a few. Like setting up the party to try and pre-empt(fashionable word these years)the neo-con train of starched and oily spivs and their stealth pustch.

And yourself, what have you done besides bitch?

by lefty Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:29

Dermot, Many of the people who post here work to better their communities in various ways and unlike politicians such as yourself, they don't do it for money, for personal power or gain or to boost their own ego. They do it on a voluntary basis for the good of their communities.

A politician like yourself has quite the nerve coming on here saying what you did. Politicians are paid by the taxpayer to do a job which all too frequently they don't do but they are still quite happy to take the money and expenses out of the mouths of the poor while serving the rich, the banksters or big business. It's no wonder people moan about them.

So my advice to you Dermot is get a fucking helmet. Politicians are paid to do a job and if the people are not happy they are getting what they are paying for then they have a right to complain. Well paid politicians should stop feeling sorry for themselves. Its part of the (well paid) job. You can't have your cake and eat it sunshine!

by Dermot Lacey Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:49

Ah I have touched a few nerves there.

Long before I was elected to anything I was a community activist. I still am. I am still involved in a voluntary way in may organisations. i see no conflict between that and my work as an elected Public Representative.

I do however see many people on protests however who simply moan and criticise and never constructively engage.

by pat c Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:14

I was at the picket on Friday and everyone there is involved in campaigns which engage with real people. Whether you like it or not the Anti Household and Water Charges Campaigns have struck a chord. The mRBI poll shows that huge majorities are opposed to water and property taxes. Interestingly, a huge majority is also opposed to welfare cuts. Perhaps extra tax on those earning in excess of €100 k pa instead along with a wealth tax?

In the coalition it is FG policies which are being implemented. Labour once again are taking the blame for this. Its time to see the rich paying for their crisis. We;ve had enough of Frankfurts way.

I'm not just involved in negative campaigning, I'm a pro choice activist, I hope Labour deliver on the X Case judgement legislation, the likes of Leo V & Lucy C & the wooly-backed FGers will be out to stop it.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:16

..its a politician is it.

But did it ever do a days HONEST work?Like not parasiting off us actual workers paying their obscene salaries and expenses.

Has it ever had to emigrate to feed its kids because it actually rocked a boat rather than kissed corporate arse?

Do tell, dermo, what party do you salute and click your heels to?Which constituency does your smug arse clench its seat it?

by Dermot Lacey Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:26

Hi Pat,

Good to talk again - I have not engaged with Indymedia for a while precisely because of the type of ludicrous posting that came after yours.

Yes I accept that some on the Far Left engage in good campaigning and indeed I have been on the odd protest myself. The point I was trying to make is that too many people on the Far Left only campaign for what they are against and not for what they are for. They also ignore the fact that many of us on the Social Democratic Left also try to improve peoples lives on a day to day basis and are honest about the simple traditional Socialist/Social Democratic opinion that taxation is a necessary part of the model to improve resources.

When I see the SP/SF/PBP alliance opposing all Property taxes my respect goes out the window.

by pat c Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:36

>When I see the SP/SF/PBP alliance opposing all Property taxes my respect goes out the window.

Its not just the above, its a lot of community groups as well. More importantly, they are not opposed to all property taxes. A tax should be progressive. In this particular case the tax is being collected because of the economic crisis; a crisis not caused by ordinary people.

Middle class and working class people are paying enough. Every single measure introduced by this and the previous government have impacted proportionally on them.

Lets have a property tax which impacts on the rich, lets have a wealth, a higher tax rate for those earning in excess of €100 k pa.

As I type this, Bob Marleys Get Up, Stand Up is on the radio.

So Labour: Get Up, Stand Up For Our Rights!

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:55

'I do however see many people on protests however(sic).....who never constructively engage.'

'I have not engaged with Indymedia recently precisely because of the type of ludicrous posting that came directly after yours.'

You mean from the worker who answered your smug original post?Whose response you cannot rebutt, so you ignore?

Its a professional politician ok....its even been on the '...odd protest..' itself.

I might just research your constituency and engage my working boot constructively with that smug arse..ludicrously.

I suggest you fucking apologise for your presumptious ignorance..especially as your first comment seems addressed personally to me.

Personally I don't have too fucking much to loose. And I need new boots so if I loose them up your yawning hole they wont be badly missed...unless you are going to get me one of those Lisbon jobs not reserved for the boys.

by Dermot Lacey Mon Apr 23, 2012 13:11

Tut tut - clearly you are just an ignorant fool - so I will leave it at that.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Apr 23, 2012 13:33

..you 'engaging constructively' with a member of the public you have insulted?
Labour I gather?

I trust the comments will be allowed to remain, so readers can compare our respective degrees of ignorance; democratically.

I will accept their judgement as to who owes an apology when we meet.

If anyone wishes to suggest it is me, fire away. I will read their critiques.

Somehow I suspect I might just have a valid case if I reverse that final blatant charge of presumptious and complacent ignorance.

Your original comment is exhibit A. Revisit it. I do believe there are half a million of us disemployed by your ignorant greed and smug arrogance.

And 70,000 of us exiting so you can be kept in the comfort you are so happy to grow accustomed to, serving our financial technocratic spivs and their imperial and imperious(suits your fucking form)ESM; Extractive Suction Mechanism. To the heart of Europe in their numbered accounts.

Its ignorant you'd like to keep us.

Slan for now, gombeen.

by Dermot Lacey Mon Apr 23, 2012 13:53

If you could write in plain english it might help me engage -instead you are just abusive and spout nonsense. You also hide behind an undeclared name.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Apr 23, 2012 14:49

..write and speak 'plain' enough English to build your houses and nurse your sick and bury your dead and teach your children and fish the north Atlantic and grow your food for export while one in five of OUR kids go hungry to bed so you lot can spin your way to comfort and then piss on us and insult us and pepper-spray our kids when we finally take to the streets as OUR kids are forced out of the country that YOUR Titanic Tiger got skippered up the iceberg to line your gilded nests and pile your pensions and pyramid your dynasties of power into a new ascendancy of complacency and our lots' streets hold our homeless and suicidal kids in sleeping bags while ye decide wheater to bulldoze the houses we built to revive your 'free' market wet dreams...

Maybe if you spent less time sucking the teats of the Communications Clinics to mind your seats you would understand our lots' plain English.
Or if your spent a week on a building site you might pick up a smattering of linguistics.
Who knows, you might even find that the ones who were told to commit suicide while ye miraged the iceberg into a 'soft landing' are ignorant enough to think its time your lot took a turn on the emigration joy-ride ye spin us.

Now go back and re-read your original comment and my reply and tell me its not in 'plain English'.

And tell me which is the ignorant comment. Its not just your lots' ESM scam that calls for a guillotine.

Your lot are like Rome..........just another fucking parasitic and perverted pyramid that is so long lying to yourselves you believe your own systematic propaganda and react allergically to anyone who levels a plain English spoke into your spinning wheels of 'too big to fail' extraction of our sweat and blood.

Our lot, and our kids, remain, too small to fucking matter on your lots' high moral ground. And your lot are too fucking THICK, it seems, to listen or read anything too democratic to confirm your collective conviction.

And, if thats too far from plain English, find a junior cert kid to translate.
One from a public funded school might be your best bet...the private establishments usually have them programmed into class ignorance, as per the Jesuitic trainers in your spindustrial clinics, by seven.

by Dermot Lacey Mon Apr 23, 2012 16:29

I have never gone to the Communications Clinic. I do not have a PR agent. I did not go to a Private School. I have mixed cement. I have delivered papers. I am not rich. I have lived all my life in a Corporation built home etc etc. It is just that I try and do positive things and you just moan and every single post you make just makes you sound like a bigger moaner

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Apr 23, 2012 17:34

..democratic feedback.
We constitute the demos, as in constitution and constituent and constituency. And demos as in democracy and democratic and the people. Plain enough?Or too ignorant for your royal authoritarian arrogance?

My parents and grandparents hail from your constituency and I am a former resident and worker in it.

Your ignorant comment was aimed at my response and reminder that subsidiarity has been airbrushed aside now it has served its purpose. I suspect your response is disinformation and a personal slur and sly troll to divert from the erosion of that right of the Irish people to determine their own future and speak for themselves in other than the hymnsheet mantras of the econmixers of cerebral cement.

And when you stop whinging about 'you lot' because we refuse to swallow your toxic shite any more and address the topics and issues raised instead of displaying that you need no tutoring in spin and distortion and would rather divert with ad hominem evasions we might have one less parastic maggot to bitch about.

And when you accept correction to your arrogant and condescending insults to working people disemployed by your parasitism I might accept your legitimacy as some sort of 'public representative'.

Until then your remain a legitimate target for accusations of self-serving pomposity and betrayal of the working people the Labour party was founded to SERVE, not insult. As surely as the aristocratic ponces who were bribed into voting 'democratically' for that other Act of Union in 1800 that also took a second vote and more largesse and positions to produce the corrrect answer.

But I'm beginning to suspect you have not the wit or intelligence to even understand plain English..or you might have had the fucking grace to stop digging your own, and the sold-out Labour party's, hole.

Just enough cerebral matter to be useful to the party mindset that IS the corruptor of our democratic thought and understanding for its patisan agendas rather than the public good.

If you wish to continue, I suggest you address subsidiarity, if you are even capable of remembering the term. If not, you should retire for someone who gives a damn.

by Dermot Lacey Mon Apr 23, 2012 22:04

Opus,

I find your posts extraordinarily arrogant. I too am a worker. I too have the normal problems facing many people mortgages, typical issues re schools and public facilities etc. however I am trying to do something about them. I too sufffered from unemployment and like most people on the dole hated it with all my heart - again that is why I am trying to do something about.

You however pontificate in an almost inpenetrable language and to be absolutely honest I think you spout rubbish and part of me believes you are only trying to rile me because surely no one in this age believes such nonsense as you write.

by lefty - (not a member of any party) Mon Apr 23, 2012 22:48

Dermot, as far as I can tell, SP/PBP etc are in favour of property tax (for the purposes of building our own society and providing services for our citizens, NOT paying bankster gamblers gambling debts or sacrificing our nation to the altar of the euro)
However they are NOT in favour of a tax aimed at the family home. This tax should be renamed THE FAMILY HOME TAX.

All secondary property other than the family home could be taxed or a tax could be levied on the amount a home is valued excessively above a generous threshold, over say 600k+ for example.

However as FG intend it, it will ultimately over time, coupled with other charges and privatised utilities, push poor people out of their homes.

Left parties will not be a "party" to a tax scheme designed to make poorer people homeless and disinherit their children as accumulated charges are paid out of estates etc.

A fair property tax ideally tries not to touch the dwelling that a person lives in except if it is clearly deliberately used as an investment to avoid tax and has an excessive value.

People need a roof over their heads. Governments should not implement taxes that will ultimately take that basic need away from them.

Wealth should be taxed but not like this. There are no safeguards here and as it stands it is the worst of all worlds, i.e. just a flat tax on family homes which hits the poor proportionally harder. However much business property escapes through tax loopholes even though this is where much of the real wealth resides.

Get real Dermot and stop deliberately misrepresenting the left position on property taxation to score points. Its just propaganda. If anybody didn't know you were a paid politician before, they could probably tell by your spinning of this issue.

by wageslave Mon Apr 23, 2012 23:38

[moderator]
thread is about talk suggesting "no to ESM"
please at least attempt to discuss the ESM and related matters.
paid politicians: please stop trying to derail such discussion
others: don't feed the trolls (or the politicians!)

Thank you

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:54

Apologies if I got a little emphatic..but the political hooker is obviously determined to distort and evade and decoy and refuse to engage with the related issue of how earlier treaties were sugar coated with protocols and subsidiarity clauses. I'll leave him, as you advise, to swing in his own stale wind.

If nothing else the exercise serves to illustrate how corrupt and distant from ordinary people Labour has been embedded, well up the blue shirt-tail. I hope that justifies the steam.
Too many people stil think Labour contains a hope for a different analysis of this set of crises than that provided by the FG landlord and speculator class, who would rather jettison our kids overboard than upset the bondholding blackmailers looting Europe and beyond in their gluttonous idiocy.
I've just been listening to FG tell Pat Kenny of the market opportunities for our agribusness exports in China over the coming decades...not a word on the one in five Irish kids experiencing real hunger, or of the growing famine in the Sahel.

Ta for the vent space. I trust you wil agree that the methodolgy of propagandising, as illustrated by the attempts to derail, are relevant to the issue. They worked before, and they wil work again, until we raise more awareness of the spin saturation environment of lies we inhabit.

These plausible platitudes are rehearsed and honed in the many clinics of polished presentation creating our compliant culture of authoritarian velvet slipways to further impoverishment dressed up as a bailout; when it is our resource base is being siphoned into the 'bailers' vaults.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:57

With respect to the Mod I am happy to continue this discussion on another thread if Opus and Left wish to do so.
Secondly I was not aware that the Left opposed people - including elected politicians - being paid for work.

by Rational Ecologist Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:10

Hi lads. I do agree with the Moderator, in that ye are not discsussing the topic at hand. Dermot, I would suggest that both yours and Opus's contributions do not constitute discussion i.e. a respectful exchange of opinions. Dermot you have been provocative and Opus has not covered himself in glory; however, as a elected representative you have exposed the failed nature of our 'Demockracy?'.
Get back to the issue at hand. The only place to continue this "discussion" is in a private venue.
One of the problems we have is a political class that is wholly unqualified for the jobs they have.
Bankers and Financial Institutions run the show and not parliaments.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:24

Rational Ecologist Yes I suppose I have been more provocative in my response than perhaps I should have been - but I was riled.

I suppose the ultimate qualification to to be a Public Representative is that the Public choose you. I have respected their judgement on me since contesting my first election in 1985 - when we were hammered. Since 1993 I have tried to be an honest rep on Dublin City Council and the people have re-elected me in 1999, 2004 and 2009 - no doubt 2014 will be a tough call.

happy to get back to main topic.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:49

Perhaps you will explain, as a public representative and Labour party councillor, what shreds of subsidiarity now remain after the mission creep erosion of our sovereignty which is about to culminate in this clinching eradication of our fiscal independence; so that the ECB and its bloated bondholders can continue to expand their swollen coffers by galloping us up their well rehearsed valley of debt?

What part of Connolly's writing sanctions Labour to embrace such anti-worker/producer policies, especially when even capitalist economists are despairing of the pro-cyclical implications that austerity will deepen the recessionary slide?

If anything in that brief pair of questions is not plain enough point it out, and I will rephrase.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:26

Opus,

Yes we have lost a lot of our sovereignity because of the actions of the last Government. This Government is set on restoring it. The Stability Treaty is about agreeing a common set of rules across the Euro Zone applicable to us all so as to help stability.

I think Connolly would be glad that his Party, despite the economic circumstances, reversed the cut in the minimum wage, protected core social welfare payments, reinstated the Joint Labour Committee process. I think he would be glad that his Party is protecting Public Sector workers, investing hugely in Education and rebuilding our International reputation which will help create jobs.

However I don't expect you to consider any of these achievements as clearly you prefer to wallow in self pity and loathing of the Country - one that I would prefer to work to improve than bemoan its future.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Apr 24, 2012 13:08

..what you ASK for.

For starters, the Irish people, as polls show, do not accept your self-justification. But, as per EUsual, our democratic betters(no more than FF) can not countenance feedback dissonant to their market-compliant program(no doubt your revised Connolly was a market pragmatist too). You fall just short of Bertie's invitation to commit suicide for those who challenged his preconcieved certainties.

'..wallow in self-pity and loathing of the Country..'???

Do elaborate on that ad hominem shite and its basis. I'll refrain from reciprocating, as I suspect thats the diversion you were sent to create.

Stop trying to discredit my case by personal insults, it fools only those as ideologically monocular as yourself. Our country and its emigrating and economically wasted population deserve better.

As for '..these achievements..'..the destruction of the Labour party, yet again, for the ego-comfort of its self-serving cadre of aging stickies, topping up their pensions....and the destruction of the the credibility of our hard-won democratic machinery in the eyes of an alienated generation...dont you ever listen to working and disemployed victims of your FG/FF policies?

But then anyone listening to the dronespeak of Gaelmore and Pet Rabbitte will recognise ye don't even listen to yourselves.

by lefty Tue Apr 24, 2012 15:45

"Yes we have lost a lot of our sovereignity because of the actions of the last Government. This Government is set on restoring it."

WTF??? how is locking us into eternal control by the EU anything to do with restoring our soverignty?? The CURRENT government are trying to do just that. You really have some neck Dermot, peddling that blatantly dishonest mantra here. You and your political buddies know full well that, amongst other things, this whole scam is all about banks and rich people borrowing money at 1% and buying bonds at 5% return minimum and trousering a net 4% with little or no risk because the EU is bullying countries into line. It's all a con which enables financial institutions and the 1% to hoover up every spare cent in these economies and you lot are in it up to your necks.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Apr 25, 2012 09:01

Lefty and Opus - you really do live in a fantasay land. A land that you can spend what you want - as long as it is other peoples money. take whatever you want as long as it is from Europe and give nothing. Decide anything you want but if other people - hey even a majority of other people - want different you still get to decide.

well I am a Democrat - Yes a Social Democrat. I believe in making life incrementally better. I am not a revolutionary but you know I am twenty times more radical than your warped sense of righteousness will ever be. Grow up both of you.

by lefty Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:53

Dermot,
well, judging by how your lot treat protesters against the shell project, or peaceful democratic protest in general, the phrase "have a bit of cop" strikes me as somewhat ironic!!

ok, since you seem intent on baiting people it's gloves off then. IMHO you are a puffed up self important overpaid servant of the establishment and the financial institutions, whose agenda you have come on here to pursue by pushing for ratification of this treaty in an underhand manner.
So don't try to paint yourself as something else. You are a sellout. A wolf in sheeps clothing. The only thing radical about you is your radical departure from decent socialist values in favour of those of your rich masters. Stop being such a supercilious asshole and pretending to serve the interests of the people. You don't. You and your ilk want to sell them up the river into indentured servitude indefinitely. I consider people like yourself as traitors attempting to sell out our country to serve the interests of the rich.

At best you are a naive liberal Dermot.

According to Denis G. Rancourt:

"Liberals are elitists. They believe that the system should be moulded by an enlightened elite, is primarily just, and needs only to be adjusted by following the guidelines for change that have already been established. They believe that the best method to obtain positive change is to negotiate and cooperate with power. They are allergic to direct action. The more the direct action is likely to be effective, the more allergic they are to it. They are a major force for maintaining present power structures and they go into overdrive when activists appear to be making gains"

fiat money is just paper (and consensus) and can be printed and circulated nationally by our own central bank if we choose to do so as suggested by professor steve keen amongst others. We don't need to sell out our children and eviscerate our local economy. There are creative alternatives if we decide not to accept your lot's framing of this whole discussion. All that's required is a reframing of the debate and a basic understanding of how money really works. Sadly, our politicians seem blissfully ignorant of the game being played out in europe. Either that or they do know but are deliberately selling out their own people. Neither option is good you'll admit. Lousy poker players too.

Printing paper seems to be ok for others. Its what the ECB are doing. Why can't we just do it ourselves? As long as everyone agrees to it. The reality is, all the buildings and machines are still here. it's just the lack of liquidity and bank lending that is pushing all the small businesses over the edge, creating spiralling unemployment and paralysing spending in the local economy. We don't need to sign up to these ridiculous and binding terms in return for the ECB's fake money which they themselves create out of thin air. Our state can just print our own instead, as long as it only circulates nationally and is not traded on the forex market. There's nothing particularly new in this idea. Sure it'll be bumpy for a couple of years and we'll make a few enemies for not playing the game (not that our euro "partners" were ever really our friends!!). But we'll still have our soverignty. And we'll still have a local economy as opposed to just a hollowed out one, a pool of desperate hungry people willing to serve as cheap labour as they are preyed upon by vulture private companies who will own all the utilities, and a bunch of tax dodging corporations holding us to ransom. Because thats the future your lot want for us. Some vision!!

Now please, go away like you said you were going to and stop baiting people, spouting government propaganda and trying to frighten people into grovelling to european elites or browbeating them into viewing this treaty the way you and your pals would like them to. Some of us have a different perspective. And it's a perspective shared by several respected economists. A few unimaginative cheap ad hominem put downs will not change that fact.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:18

Lefty - actually Hypocrite would be a better description.

There are worse things than being called a Liberal.

An Intolerant idiot is one of them. I suggest that the cap might fit you well.

Dermot

by lefty Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40

Not only a liberal servant of the elites but an unimaginative one at that. Dermot, I see little point in trading insults here with you unless you try to at least show a little more creativity!. But then again wishing for creativity from Irish career politicians is rather optimistic isn't it!! I suggest you Go earn your bloated salary by doing some actual work for the citizens that pay you instead of faffing about on the internet.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:06

No, Dermot, just getting more intolerant of the idiocy we have tolerated too patiently for too long from minions of moolah like you and your pinkshirt party pals sloping around the Dail clubhouse feeling ten feet taller than the rest of us because you rub shoulders in race tents with starched white collar criminals...

Too fucking lazy to do an honest days work, and too fucking yellow to steal, except from the poor and the sick and the elderly who you con sequentially into thinking you might just some day represent them rather than patronise them.

You're not even a successfully useful idiot. You get the second accolade, but despite your best efforts, you fail the primary requirement.

You realy should quit before your masters realise your puerile posts are being counterproductive.

But before you go, thanks for all the ammo provided in displaying the level of debate and democracy masquerading as liberal and social democratic in 21st century Labour.

Its been enlightening, and confirmative, if pathetic and disappointing.

by Rational Ecologist Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:23

Dermot can I ask yo to define what a Structural Deficit is and what are the implications of writing it into our Constitution?
Can you also share with me your understanding of Fractional Reserve Banking?
Many thanks.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:38

No!

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:47

See, its not so difficult when you try.

Now all you have to do is say that to the ESM and ECB and fat cats you were elected to hold to democratic account.

Start by asking FG where they parked their mantra about accountability and transparency before donning the FFing cloak of Endanashnilintrist invisibility.

by Rational Ecologist Wed Apr 25, 2012 13:00

The European state that the political class are so eager to impose on us is the dream of Hitler, Mussolini, Vichy, Giscard d'Estang, Napoleon................
Does anyone see a pattern?
Please refer to 'The Rotten Heart of Europe' and 'The Tainted Source' both of which are out of print but findable.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Apr 25, 2012 13:21

To be honest I don't see this site as a centre for rational debate.

For me it is a reminder as to why I am a Social Democrat and why I believe that the Pretend Left who by and large populate the sight have nothing to offer the Irish people.

by wageslave - (moderator) Wed Apr 25, 2012 13:32

[moderator]
Dermot, one more troll and you're banned ok?
We've been more than lenient thus far...
Perhaps one reason why people can't discuss things properly around here
is because of trolling and personal insults by folks like yourself, deliberately aimed at derailing any such discussion.
Stay on topic and try to be constructive or else go back to P.ie!

by Celia S Wed Apr 25, 2012 19:10

The word Guillotine was mentioned somewhere in this thread. That's a great word

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Apr 26, 2012 16:07

..drawing attention to uncomfortable facts like our growing integration into NATO through the likes of the EUphemistically monikered Partnership for Peace...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=30508

I think just who's 'peace' emerges from the text.