Belated Merry Xmas And A Happy New Year To All Our Readers And Contributors

by expect better Thu Dec 29, 2011 17:45

This isn't funny. I have been contributing to indymedia for nearly ten years now and have never seen the the site stoop so low. I remember a time when we could set the left agenda here. There was many critical thinkers posting here. Where are they now? Maybe it's time to fold the tent here and let something else emerge.

by nmn Thu Dec 29, 2011 18:59

haha this is hilarious. Thanks for the post. Beats the hell out of 20 pages of Marxist dribble and pontification about how bourgeoisly smart the posters are

by expect better Thu Dec 29, 2011 19:14

Your Father fucks other men in the arse. LOL ah yeah I should lighten up because insulting people is great fun.

by Culchie Thu Dec 29, 2011 19:43

Twinning the looney left with agenda IS funny. Me thinks they finally realised that communism is as dead as their heroes Marx, Lenin and uncle Joe and that Mother Russia was just as corrupt as any other super power. Anyway the comic relief that this site provides is worth its weight in (capitalist) gold.

by wageslave - (personal capacity) Thu Dec 29, 2011 19:45

I take full responsibility for this. We are all quite serious and gloomy around here for the most part. I figured we needed a laugh. Personally I thought the santa bit later on highlighted the charade of rampant xmas consumerism rather well. However I guess we all have a different sense of humour!

ok, If more people complain than say they got a laugh out of it in the next day or two then I promise I'll remove it. one vote per person no socks. Even though I'm sure you all have a surplus after xmas! ;-)

In any case, the main point was to wish everyone well, regardless of whether you happen to share my odd sense of humour or not.

So...If you are easily offended, very religious, lacking in a sense of humour, overly serious, or alternatively, pride yourself on how sophisticated you are then perhaps might I humbly suggest you don't click on the video. You probably have better things to be doing!

-wageslave (personal capacity)

by expect better Thu Dec 29, 2011 20:46

Now you want us to vote leave a video up, that shows your contempt for Christians, because you find it funny. Who are you Bernard Manning? Your post breaches the guidlelines and you should remove it. See below 5.Discriminatory or hateful posts. Posts that contain explicitly racist, sexist or homophobic views will be removed. We don't oppose free speech for people with hateful views, we're just not going to provide them with a platform for distributing those views.

by indyfan Thu Dec 29, 2011 20:55

"Maybe it's time to fold the tent here and let something else emerge."

Absolutely nothing stopping YOU creating something new, or perhaps writing some more of those great agenda setting articles you spoke of to improve this site. Put your money where your mouth is as the saying goes. This site is only as good or as bad as the content submitted to it by the public.

You act as if the presence of this "awful" site is the only thing holding back some great torrent of well written articles and reports by the general public from exploding onto the Irish internet landscape. I think you need a reality check! Whether this site closes or stays open changes little. Its far from perfect but having it here is certainly better than there being nothing at all.

by JH Christ Thu Dec 29, 2011 21:04

I think this just proves the double standards and hypocracy of the editors on this site. Now if the video was mocking Mo or Allah would it last 10 minutes? ..thought not.

by wageslave Thu Dec 29, 2011 21:17

Firstly, I didn't make the video. Perhaps you should take it up with Deek! ;-)

I have absolutely no problem with christians at all. Some of them are very nice people.

I do however have a problem with the notion that some ideas are somehow special and should receive special treatment and are not to be questioned. Sorry I just don't go along with that. In my book Ideas are just ideas. They are quite distinct entities from the person that happens to believe them, despite what some people would like us to believe. and ideas should stand or fall on merit alone. Nothing personal. We should be free to question, or ridicule any ideas we wish.

If somebody made statements about physics that were vague or full of unreasonable speculation, or had no proveable basis in fact then those ideas would be up for some serious scrutiny and would probably be eviscerated.

Ideas such as the existence of people in history who are purported to have magical powers bestowed on them such as the ability to rise from the dead, heal the sick and walk on water etc, but which have little or no basis in the historical record should be equally open to rigorous scrutiny.

We are adults here after all aren't we?

by gayandproud Thu Dec 29, 2011 21:37

its quite a tasteful picture of two men having sex. Nothing homophobic there.
In fact it's quite refreshing! Jesus amongst other religious figures is considered a gay Icon after all. I guess you never saw that derek jarman movie!! (sebastiane)

I think the picture is meant to highlight the fact that the bible and the christian religion are not quite so "christian" when it comes to their treatment of gay people. Please don't try to use my sexuality as your excuse to protect your backward religion. That would be just too hypocritical for words!!

by potkettle Thu Dec 29, 2011 21:52

@expect better

Question is, how old are you if you still believe in magical beings who raise the dead and walk on water and live in the sky? ;-)

Oh, the sweet irony of somebody protecting christianity on the basis that the person attacking it might be considered sexist or homophobic!!!

by potkettle Thu Dec 29, 2011 22:04

On the racist front, wasn't it christians that decided jesus was actually WHITE???
But nobody born in that region was white. Now THATS what I call racist!

by expect better Thu Dec 29, 2011 23:27

So it’s a repost? Not news just an attack on other people’s beliefs. Are you for real? You say you have no problem with Christians but then you attack their beliefs by posting a satirical video that is offensive and wishing them a merry Christmas. You are anti-religion - so what? Doesn’t give you the right to offend people because they have faith. I would like to see you offend other faiths that come on here. Nice liberal Christians are easy targets but why don’t go down and picket a mosque. How about some direct action mate. Are you up for it? I would have more respect for you if you written and produced the video but no its just a rehash of someone else’s ideas and work. Is this what Indy media is about. This would have been deleted by the editors a few years ago and would never have made a feature. You talk a load of bollix with your “statements about physics that were vague or full of unreasonable speculation, or had no proveable basis in fact then those ideas would be up for some serious scrutiny and would probably be eviscerated.” and your counter argument is to post a shite video to be offensive. Fair play to you mate - you won that arguement “We are adults here after all aren't we?” Are we? - you are a bit childish!

by expect better Thu Dec 29, 2011 23:43

Is homophobia the only discrimination that concerns you? I hope you are not too obsessed with your sexuality that you would not stand up to repression in all its forms.

by Laura Fri Dec 30, 2011 02:31

This squalid hate-filled clip is racist and disgusting. Take it down at once, you student gobshite.

by ultraka Fri Dec 30, 2011 03:24

How easily have we succumb to our own caricature?
;
I would genuinely like to propose a conversation around shutting down Indymedia.ie altogether.
;
I'm sorry to attack 'wageslave' directly, it looks like a lot of hard work went into your video. But you have to ask is what you're doing actually constructive? or are you bolstering your own sense of purpose through identity with a social niche?

Similarly to the previous poster, I have been reading and contributing to Indymedia for almost a decade, but for the past few years it has shifted from an inspirational support network for global justice issues and has become a pit of cynicism and aggression.

All I have seen is endless trolling of genuinely constructive projects and initiatives and the perpetuation of this sort of inarticulate bitching. Really, your tossing out adjectives llike "Greedy" in the way Geldof uses "Poverty" or Obama uses "Change"; to incite an impotent mob-mentality.
;
Having felt connected to the project for this length of time, and feeling that it is a necessary tool for resistance and the growth of alternatives, I am disappointed to watch such a demise. I know that I am not alone in this feeling, this is a conversation I have had many times with others who are actually active in the world.
;
The trolls have alienated so many people that this feels like a site just propped up by miserable angry people sitting in front of their computers looking for an outlet to vent their anger at the world. Well there's better ways that anger could be used.
I want to open a debate. At what point does an incubator become a refrigerator? Is it time to but old thing out of its mysery?

by Joe Mc Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:08

Ideas are just ideas, it's true .The idea of religious toleration is just an idea as well , but the relative toleration we enjoy today came after the deaths of many millions of people in religious wars fought throughout the centuries. Tolerance of atheism is a very recent phenomenom - one of the fruits of the Enlightenment .Religious people like Jean-Jacques Rousseau , prepared the conditions that allowed us to critique religion today . When atheists were hounded by Church and King mobs in the eighteenth century , it was the Unitarian churches that gave them sanctuary and platforms from which to propagate their ideas . Without the stand taken by such people as the scientist , materialist and Unitarian , Joseph Priestley , the toleration that allowed the ideas of atheism to flourish wouldn't have been possible . Atheist criticism of religion, if it is in any way profound, must start from the proposition that religion is about much more than ideas .

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:27

Have ye no minds to go to....just close the FKN window. I didn't propose a conversation when the IT went so far to the Right the newsprint was goosestepping...I stopped buying it. I'm not picketing RTE for misrepresenting my taxes by propping up Lizzie Windsor and her local pussies..if you need targets, start with the real shite. As for anti-Christian....I'd say its anti the perversion and commercialisation of an originally egalitarian philosophy, inimical to money-worship and warmongering(though since airbrushed into imperial line), and propounded by a heretic who would have been burned alive by the nominal founder's Roman church usurpers, up to quite recently; just as he was (allegedly)tortured and executed by the Sanhedran high-priest of the same sect wreaking havoc in Palestine today. Its not just amusing, its historically and factually accurate, how uncomfortable for the mentally indolent. As so many suggested, stop whinging and open a better thread if you cant see the relevance and the piss-take. St Brian must be spinning in his sepulchre behind his rolling stone. Too much po-faced piety: precisely whats wrong with the up-its-own-arse-so-FKN-called Left. And has been for FKN years. They think a change of opiate is a revolutionary creed.

by Sean Crudden Fri Dec 30, 2011 13:03 sean at impero dot iol dot ie Jenkinstown, Dundalk, Co Louth 0879739945

Attending the Ladywell Clinic, Dundalk, on Wednesday morning I asked Áine, the nurse operating the depot clinic, whether she had been at church for Christmas. She told me she had attended the 20.00 vigil mass on Christmas Eve in St. Peter's Cathedral, Drogheda. St. Peter's male voice choir sang at the mass. "The music was beautiful," Áine elaborated, "That's what Christmas means to me." Clearly Áine is a mature person. She retires soon; that depot clinic was her last. And clearly she knows something about religion: maybe it is life experience, maybe she learned it properly at school. The guy in the wig dressed in a T-shirt with a sheet thrown over his shoulder wearing shades is a caricature of Jesus Christ. He is possessed of a nasal hectoring whine and speaking in a Yankee tone he exudes a cheap air of intellectual superiority. As a critic he has no credibility because he plainly does not understand christianity as it is understood and practiced in Ireland today. People indymedia are familiar with the straw man technique. This guy is not demolishing the raison d'etre for religion; he is merely deriding a caricature of his own creation. As a comedian he does not even get off the starting block. I do not tend towards censorship. If wageslave wants to relay this video through indymedia that is his/her responsibility and I would never seek to prevent him/her from doing so. But I think it is wrong for wageslave or opus diablos to bully me into thinking that I am stupid or that there is no alternative to their prescriptive and doctrinaire attitudes.

by WitchfinderGeneral Fri Dec 30, 2011 14:29

"..the relative toleration we enjoy today came after the deaths of many millions of people in religious wars fought throughout the centuries. Tolerance of atheism is a very recent phenomenom - one of the fruits of the Enlightenment .Religious people like Jean-Jacques Rousseau , prepared the conditions that allowed us to critique religion today . When atheists were hounded by Church and King mobs in the eighteenth century"

erm..and this is your argument FOR religion??

by Joe Mc Fri Dec 30, 2011 14:40

The ever-amusing Opus Dei seems to be sayng that religious people shouldn't criticize the anti-religious video on this thread . That's the sort of tolerance that many - including non-religious people like myself - have come to expect from this site . Self-indulgent , smug westeners living under the protection of Nato bombers having a good laugh by " taking the piss" out of religion with puns and clever words a few days after a Christian church was bombed in Nigeria , in the same week as mobs torched a mosque in the West Bank . Po-faced opponents of intolerance should keep their mouths shut on this thread in this same month that religious sectarianism exploded again across Iraq - carefully nurtured by smug enlightened Western leaders ,and secular liberal newspapers like the New York Times .

by WitchfinderGeneral Fri Dec 30, 2011 15:30

"a few days after a Christian church was bombed in Nigeria , in the same week as mobs torched a mosque in the West Bank . Po-faced opponents of intolerance should keep their mouths shut on this thread in this same month that religious sectarianism exploded again across Iraq - carefully nurtured by smug enlightened Western leaders ,and secular liberal newspapers like the New York Times . "

Thats RELIGIOUS sectarianism joe. Religious people fighting other religious people because they believe in slightly different creation myths.

If people were not taught from birth to believe in god and an afterlife or that certain ideas were not to be questioned and if they had to face the likely reality that this life is all there is, then is it not more likely that they might not be as easily "offended" and "incensed" (hence easily manipulated) to fight among themselves over absurd creation myths and abstractions and would perhaps place more emphasis on their immediate reality and what their real enemies were doing to them in this life which is likely all there is.

Religion is clearly no help to these people. In fact it's clearly a large part of the problem. I agree totally about the smug western leaders and the new york times, but don't you agree that the strength and depth of religious fervor in people makes them easier targets for cynical divide and conquer geopolitics. And since all that matters is the next life, they are more willing to put up with horrible things in this one, or even die far too willingly so they can enter "paradise". Which is really just a big con.

I see no reason to shut up because more religious people are killing each other over their creation myths. In fact I see that as all the more reason to shine a light on the absurdity of it all.

by JH Christ Fri Dec 30, 2011 16:57

Have a laugh about Allah too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ9kUJPTTQE

by JoeMc Fri Dec 30, 2011 18:26

I wasn't telling you to shut up Witchfinder . I was pointing to the fact that Opus Dei had told people to "stop whinging and open a better thread if you cant see the relevance and the piss-take "to this thread .

When people deliberately set out to offend people of any religious pursuasion by "taking the piss" out of their beliefs , they invariably succeed. This is well known to rulers all over the world and is concsiously used for the purposes of keeping the status quo .Experience from the the north of this country attests to the deliberate stoking up of religious sectarianism by the likes of Ian Paisley and the Orange Order . Whether people writing here think that people should or should not be religious, it is an undeniable fact that billions of people in the world are religious . Are their religious views likely to be strengthened or weakened by smug atheists mocking these views? Most of the athiestsdoing the mocking i.e. insulting of religious views on this this thread are themselves probably no further than one or two generations away from such supersitions themselves. None of the atheists have any idea about the real material roots of religion as far as I can see. They remind me of intolerant ex -alcoholics or ex-smokers.

Iraq is a country with a largely Muslim population divided between Sunni and Shiite branches of Islam . Under Saddam there was relative peace between the two communities . After the fall of Saddam, the country's conquerors deliberately initated a policy of divide and rule .The left-wing free-thinking atheist Peter Tatchell gave the following advice to the Western powers -advice that was subsequently followed - in the week before the Iraq invasion in 2003 .

" The international community should train and arm the Iraqi opposition forces, especially the Kurds and Shias who already have viable armies . The Kurds have 80,000 troops, and the Shias have 5,000 to 10,000 fighters. Both are desperate to take on Saddam. But they need more training and better weapons: tanks, helicopter gun-ships, fighter planes, heavy artillery and anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles. "

We already have the anti-Muslim brigade turning this into an islamophobic , let's -have -a -go at- the- muslims-now thread . Wageslave can hardly have been so naive to expect that that wouldn't happen when she started the mockery.

by JoeMc Fri Dec 30, 2011 18:55

Witchfinder would have us believe that religious sectarian bombings exist in seperation from the powers that utilizes them -that religious people are somehow a bunch of barbarians who can't wait to murder each other -legitimate targets for withering irony from the likes of Christopher Hitchens . This article from wsws gives some idea of what the sectarianism in Iraq was all about and where it came from .
Iraq’s tragic encounter with US imperialism

The withdrawal of American combat troops from Iraq after nearly nine years of military occupation has been accompanied by a surge in sectarian tensions and violence that threatens to escalate into civil war. Following the explosions that ravaged Baghdad last week, there have been further attacks on government buildings in the capital and bombings and killings in the volatile cities of Fallujah, Mosul and Kirkuk.
The national unity government made up of rival sectarian- and ethnic-based factions has collapsed. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, the representative of the dominant Shiite political bloc, has issued an arrest warrant against Sunni Vice President Tariq al-Hashemi, accusing him of directing sectarian terrorism. Sunni parties are boycotting the parliament and their ministers have walked out of the cabinet. They have accused Maliki of seeking to establish a dictatorship, and their leader, Iyad Allawi, has called for intervention by the US, Turkey and the Arab League.
There can be no doubt that the US State Department, the CIA and other intelligence agencies, operating from the massive American embassy in central Baghdad, are active participants in the political crisis. The Obama administration and the US military agreed to remove all combat troops, as stipulated in the Status of Forces agreement reached in 2008, only after they failed to bully the Iraqi regime into allowing thousands of troops to remain under a blanket exemption from prosecution under Iraqi law. None of the Iraqi parties could support such a demand because of massive popular hostility toward the US occupation.
Events are now beginning to spiral out of control. Hashemi has taken refuge in the autonomous Kurdish region in the north and the Kurdish establishment have rejected Maliki’s demands that they hand over the Sunni official. The Sunni leadership of Anbar province, where Fallujah is located, has joined with the majority Sunni provinces of Diyala and Salahaddin in announcing that it wants the same autonomous status as the Kurdish region.
Maliki declared Saturday that he would oppose the autonomy moves, warning that it would lead to “dividing Iraq and to rivers of blood.” Troops and militias loyal to the Shiite parties have deployed across Baghdad and are massing near other major cities such as Mosul. There is little doubt that Sunni militias are mobilising and that the Kurdish armed forces have been placed on alert.
Just two weeks ago, US President Barack Obama declared Iraq to be a country “that is self-governing, that is inclusive, and that has enormous potential.” In reality, a war fought on the most reactionary communalist lines is looming, potentially providing the pretext for some form of new US-led intervention in Iraq. The conspiracies, assassinations and bombings taking place all have the character of black operations intended to destabilise the country.
At least 40,000 American troops, backed by an array of aircraft, are currently based in Kuwait, Bahrain and elsewhere in the Middle East.
From the beginning, the US intervention in Iraq has had one primary aim: to ensure that its large oil and natural gas reserves were brought under US corporate domination and American military control. To achieve that end, the American occupation regime ruthlessly stoked sectarian and ethnic divisions to prevent the emergence of a unified movement among the Iraqi people against US imperialism.
The disbandment of the entire Iraqi Army and the illegalisation of Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party in the first weeks of the occupation were intended to disempower the largely Sunni Muslim ruling elite. Despite their close links to Iran, Shiite religious parties were elevated in place of their Sunni counterparts, providing they helped repress Iraqi Shiites who were organising to resist. The north of the country was handed over to a venal Kurdish elite as a private fiefdom in exchange for their provision of Kurdish forces to assist the US military.
At every point, sectarian violence was used to weaken the anti-occupation insurgency. The February 2006 bombing of the Shiite Askiriya shrine by unknown assailants was blamed on Sunni extremists and seized upon by the Shiite-dominated government and security forces to unleash a frenzy of killings throughout the suburbs of Baghdad. The US military stood by as thousands of Sunni men and boys were hideously tortured and their bodies dumped in the streets.
As Iraq once again lurches toward potential disintegration, it is worth recalling that the carnage ravaging the country in 2006 was used as the pretext by then-Senator, now Vice President, Joseph Biden to advance a plan for the sectarian partition of the country. Biden advocated the establishment of Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish statelets as a divide-and-rule strategy that would enable the US to withdraw most of its troops while keeping control over Iraq and its resources.
The Bush administration decided instead to implement the so-called surge, sending tens of thousands additional US troops and intensifying the repression of the Iraqi population, particularly in Sunni areas. The increased American operations, combined with the mass murder carried by Shiite death squads, effectively drowned the insurgency in blood by the end of 2008. Partition, however, always remained a potential fall-back option.
The US occupation of the country has amounted to a conscious policy of sociocide—the destruction of the very fabric of a society. Formerly mixed suburbs have been transformed into sectarian enclaves, and the people have been traumatised by bitter memories of communal violence. The Iraqi population as a whole has been left to endure radioactive and other forms of contamination, dysfunctional water and electricity supplies, a ruined health and education system, and the loss of a large proportion of an entire generation of men. Well over one million people were killed, with millions more wounded and still more millions turned into refugees.
Crimes of immense proportions have been carried out by the Bush and Obama administrations to ensure American domination of Iraq and the Middle East. The last thing that the withdrawal of troops signifies is the exit of the US from the long-suffering country. It can be said with certainty that State Department and intelligence operatives are intriguing to ensure that US interests are served, if necessary through the promotion of sectarian conflicts and dismemberment of the country.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Fri Dec 30, 2011 19:11

I do believe you confuse religious sentiment with superstition. Seeing as you defend Islam, I suggest you catch up with Sufi thinking before you invert my chosen appellation and offend my Luciferian deity. As for Mr Crudden. I didn't even notice your presence; sean, drop the self-fascination(ask the Sufis). Sufism is to Islamic uber-clericalism what Zen is to pietistic Buddhism. Somehow i think the Deek has more genuine understanding of the sources of religion than his beraters. Devil take ye all. Do me for blasphemy. Or as the Zoroastrians put it...'I, god, have a joke I tell to few. I, whom am alone in all, can only laugh at YOU.'

by Sean Crudden Fri Dec 30, 2011 20:43

That's a nice little essay on Iraq, Joe. It gives me a better handle on the situation in Iraq about which I have read little to dispel my confusion. Your essay underlines the fact that a lot of apparently religious based conflict has, in fact, other causes. Ireland already grasps this point arising out of the conflict in NI. Granted there is a certain factionalism where religions are concerned just as there is between the fans and supporters of different football teams. Manchester United is a religion for some people. Generally religious factions are being merely used in some other larger political power struggle, like the Williamite Wars in Ireland. Laborat mons et produit mux. I think Opus is going to give birth soon to some kind of diabolical religion of his own. One that cannot be exploited or subverted?

by WitchfinderGeneral Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:06

Joe.I appreciate the informative article but if your theory is that people fight among themselves only for very logical reasons and not really because of religious differences, then it falls down in one respect.

How do you explain the fact that the fighting is so often very clearly defined along religious lines?? its always sunni fighting shiite, muslim fighting christian or jew. catholic fighting protestant. People always seem particularly willing to polarise in this manner. Is that always just coincidence??

It seems absurd to look at such sectarian fighting around the world then imply that religious differences have absolutely nothing to do with it. Of course they have. When there are political stresses in a country, people tend to divide on the hottest faultlines. Those are usually to do with who believes what about their god or the afterlife.

I'd rather there were no silly ideas about gods or afterlives involved to confuse people stop them facing reality square on. I'd rather poor people stopped thinking about the next life and united to fight imperialists, their corrupt governments and rich people stealing their resources right now in this life. Religious beliefs just cloud the real issues and help to control and stunt the masses and get them fighting among themselves

How you think religion is helping the situation get better I don't know. Except that it helps people roll over and accept their miserable fate more willingly, believing the next life will be so much better. But thats just a balm and a lie which helps to perpetuate the status quo and delay real progress.

by Contrarian Sat Dec 31, 2011 13:06

You know that awful sense of foreboding you get when you watch some talentless stand up "comedian" doing a routine and you're thinking when's he going to get to the funny bit and you slowly realise he thinks this IS the funny bit. Deek obviously thinks he's hilarious. So does his mammy, I'm sure. Apparently wageslave does too. But he just isn't funny! Yes, he says "fuck" a lot. Yes, he looks supercool (shades on TV no less!) Yes, he's brave enough to have a go at (some) religion. But where's the beef? Where's the scintillating wordplay? The sidesplitting comedy scenarios? Taut crisp dialogue? Nope, we've got "I'm dreaming of a shite Christmas." Well, isn't that just hilarious! Such imagination! Such talent! Sounds like the script was written by a couple of drunks at closing time. Actually, now I'm being unfair to drunks - your average drunk at closing time could come up with something far funnier than that. What a dreary tedious po-faced 16 minutes of undergraduate pretentiousness posing as ubercool knowing sophisticated "humour" OK in fairness there's about (say) a minutes worth of genuine comedy potential in there. But that seam's been mined before and by far better comedians. And without the sledgehammer anti US heavyhanded propaganda laced throughout.

For all that, I'm glad to live in a society where wageslave is free to exercise her right to post such drivel. Ironic that it is those very societies that permit freedom of speech to the point of offensiveness that are also the very societies that attract most criticism on indymedia. The US, EU states, Canada, Australia etc.

Further irony that wageslave is part of the censorship team, er editorial collective, here on indymedia that enforces an ultra rigid editorial policy that, shall we say, strongly discourages dissenting views of any sort. Albeit one of the more liberal moderators, but then again, that's not a difficult competition to win.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Dec 31, 2011 13:36

Now there's an idea for a fresh new creed.

It sure would make a change from the pseudo-Christian sheep-worship the churches have perverted the man's egalitarian and anti-sectarian teachings into(even the non-Jew was to be admited to 'salvation'; thats what freaked Caiaphus, his exclusive little tribal cabal was under threat).

Once Rome saw the potential of using the anti- violent-retaliation clause to pacify its indoctrinated minions they changed the 'seek and you might just find' to 'we are the one true means to eternal truth'. Its all downhill since. Instead of the pantheistic recognition of the spark of divinity in all sentient being it was twisted into psychological terror of an afterlife borrowed from Manichaean dualism, and layers of canon law did the obscurantist rest. Doubt and healthy scepticism were outlawed and replaced by dictated dogmatic certitudes; rejectable on pain of excommunication or worse. We continue to unmask the absolute corruption this absolute power enegendered in our own, and wider, 'catholic' society. The schitzoid denials are manifestations of this same delusional outward projection of 'evil' onto the those excluded from our own 'purity', even down to blaming the victim for the perpetrator's crimes(the evil tempter). By this device we avoid the duality of our being by denying our animal basis...and literally debasing our healthy animality into sexual perversity.

All the universalist religious founders tried to communicate this inclusive humanitarianism. All the power-hungry priesthoods have perverted these inclusive attempts into distorted exclusive means to their own egoistical ends. Often unconciously because the 'truths' are literally absorbed with the mother's milk. Recieved pre-packaged, rather than sought and found, adaptable and living wisdom. Hence Benny Ratzinger is sole(soul?) key-keeper of the Kingdom(which was originally within, i.e. accessable to the intellect). Full circle, back to Caiaphas, with fresh liturgy and razzamatazz.

And if Opus initiates a religion its followers had better be capable of laughing, at themselves for starters. But its unnecessary, there are too many better comedians out there already. Monty Python make a very acceptable college of cardinals.

Though Po-puss Maledictus Diablos does have a certain ring to it. Y'all can kiss it.

by wageslave - (personal capacity) Sat Dec 31, 2011 13:36

contrarian..awww.... didn't you like the bit about kim jong il ;-) seems like that bit would be right up your alley.

I guess you didn't heed the warning I posted before clicking on it.

Yes I must apologise for Deeks singing. its not the best.

Thanks (I think!) for the backhanded compliment.

I look forward to applying evil left wing censorship to reams more of your right wing neo con pro israel / US apologist propaganda in 2012. ;-)

Happy new year to you too.

by JoeMc Sat Dec 31, 2011 13:43

Religious, racial, gender, ethnic differences are exploited by the one percent who want to divide the ninety-nine in order to maintain power. Atheists should promote tolerance and respect between the ninety-nine percent whatever their religion . Do Christians like to see their prophet mocked at Christmas or at Easter ? As the economic crisis worsens , there is a danger that the type of factionalism currently tearing apart Iraq will spread . Please don't pour oil on troubled water . ( i didn't write that article about Iraq by the way Sean , it came from the WSWS )

by Sean Crudden Sat Dec 31, 2011 13:52

Attaboy Contrarian! You have your eyes open and your critical faculties about you unlike Opus Diabolos whose head is full of half digested hackneyed shibboleths seeking to blind us with his particular miasma of imperialist shite. Just count how many of his verbs are in the imperative mood? Anyway what I want to say really to WitchfinderGeneral is that John The Baptist pointed out Jesus at one of his first public appearances with the words, "Look. There goes the lamb of God." When I attend 19.30 mass in Our Lady of The Wayside Church, Jenkinstown, tonight one of the high points of the ceremony is the Agnus Dei when the priest and congregation unite in the plea, "Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world. Have mercy on us! Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world. Have mercy on us! Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world. Grant us peace!" The world's great composers have set those words to music many times. Properly understood the words convey the idea that peace is the most desirable state just as it is the most elusive. The General would prefer if "poor people stopped thinking," and, "united to fight imperialists." I suppose the General happy in the thought that poor people followed his prescription would sit in the background and watch their blood flow down the street?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Dec 31, 2011 15:39

You and your Roman cult. Gimme Monty Python for Spanish Inquisitors anyday.

Yes, your twisting church prefers compliant sheep to interrogation of its dogmatic authoritarianism. Preferably underage if the EVIDENCE is to be believed.

Peace is NOT the most desirable state, except perhaps for the intellectually lazy. Some of us prefer understanding. But that requires the cultivation of an open and critical mindset, not a complacent, comfort and reassurance-seeking, idiocy.

Before you throw shibboleths about you should recognise that that is precisely what your obscurantist Latinisms constitute.

And Joe, my impression is that the video insults hypocricy and the crass commercialisation of the original message of the Galilean prophet. Think about it, the man's message was that we renounce blood kin and recognise our common kinship, extra-tribally. The churches have perverted that into the Holy Nuclear Family, an inversion of the universalism he taught, as did Mohammed, Buddha, and all these transcendant THINKERS.
When i was a kid the favourite toy was new gun for the occasion, but the sermons were all about sexual horror, not the murderous-program nature of our gifts...does that say nothing of the churches distortion of a man who spoke of not seeking vengeance...and who's only recorded instance of anger and violence was against the usurers?

And the crud calls me imperial. Read your church history, sean, and wake FKN up.

by Sean Crudden Sat Dec 31, 2011 16:01

Look, Opus. I don't want to lecture. But when I went to school I was taught to write based on my own experience and to convey my own impressions and thoughts. Perhaps I am an anachronism in the age of cut 'n paste? What I am trying to concentrate on is the here and now. The video wageslave posted, religion as it is practiced today in Jenkinstown, things that I can see and comprehend. You continually serve up a plasma of ancient history, accusation, blame, derision, abuse. I cannot escape the impression that you are trying to make me feel even smaller than I am. But your argument is based on things I have no responsibility for and which I decry as much as you do. Incidentally I loved to play with toy guns as a child; but as an adult I have never owned or discharged a firearm. Are you a man at all; or just some kind of disembodied spirit, and evil version of Ariel, a spiritual denizen of the ether removed from human reality?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Dec 31, 2011 16:21

..despite your convictions otherwise, it is not about YOU, nor people of religious beliefs.

It is about false religiosity, lip-service hypocrisy, psychological indoctrination to suppress critical thought, enforced conformism, the commercialisation of a cynically fantasised reality, and the sectarianist power-plays on the teachings of a man who was deified for political reasons, as was common to Roman custom.

As for me, I'm just a cyber-figment radiated from a distant nebula in an effort to stir your neurons into unaccustomed cerebration.

Happy New Era.

by WitchfinderGeneral Sat Dec 31, 2011 16:22

"The General would prefer if "poor people stopped thinking," and, "united to fight imperialists." I suppose the General happy in the thought that poor people followed his prescription would sit in the background and watch their blood flow down the street?"

Actually no. The "general" would prefer if poor people STARTED thinking. And look around you, their blood is already flowing down the streets. It might as well be for the potential of a better future for themselves and their brethren, instead of just fighting among themselves over religious differences.

by Sean Crudden Sat Dec 31, 2011 16:34

Well, Opus, then I think you are wasting your time. The battle is already over. There is none of that kind of thing going on around Jenkinstown. We think for ourselves in our own puny way. What next? The first hymn tonight will probably be Once in Royal David's City. I will offer it up for you wherever you are in the hope that it will reorganise your molecules and direct your quantum brain to consider what you would like to see happen not just now but in the future.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Dec 31, 2011 16:47

Its already happening. A generation is shedding the snake-skin of Mudder Church and its fear-based obedience, and thinking for itself.
Whether it will be in time to arrest the predations of the parasitic brainwashers remains to be seen. Hydras dont die easy.

But then, no challenge, no craic.

As for Royal David, aint that Judaism?

I though you were into the lad said he came to change that program.

by Sean Crudden - impero Sat Dec 31, 2011 17:11

Hi Opus. I am trying to relax now before mass. I will write out some of the words of Royal David's City when I come home. Maybe someone in your galaxy would like to set them to your kind of heavenly music and relay them back here to soften our dreams.

by Sean Crudden Sat Dec 31, 2011 17:59

"Once in Royal David's city stood a lowly cattle shed; where a mother laid her baby in a manger for his bed. Mary was that mother mild; Jesus Christ her little child. He came down to earth from heaven who is god and lord of all; and his shelter was a stable and his cradle was a stall." There is at least another verse but I cannot bring it to mind just now. Sorry for not being able to format this properly. I have not got the hang of the new system.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Dec 31, 2011 19:17

...while children in Bethlehem are still subject to nightmare slaughters of innocents??
While Jerusalem is evicting its rightful tenants and stewards for a jackbooted militarist takeover that makes Pilate&Co seem saintly? in the same name of 'Royal David' and his increasingly obscene star.
While our airfields are being used to facilitate the torture and crucifixion of men and women in the name of the libel 'empire' you direct at me?

The peace you seek is not the peace of that man reputed to have been born homeless, and your dreaming facilitates the homeless in our streets tonight. But dont take it personal, you are, after all, in the majority. And your church would call his mother's pre-marital pregnancy illegitimate. And still its bishops bless war-fleets and turn blind eyes to all morality other than who fucks who physically as an act of affection. Right up it pyramid paedpohiles are protected, sheltered and recycled(freshly absolved from their 'sins').

You blind yourself with false dreams, nor do you understand the implications of the season that is upon us. Deek has more comprehension.
Sing your lullaby, but not to me. I'm staying awake a little longer. Your gobshite galaxy requires an injection of intelligence into its mammon-worshiping butthead. You seem to be fixated on a sentimental and childish(as opposed to childlike)delusion common to your Roman self-hypnotic cult. You should know from all your mass-going that it is written 'My name will be upon their lips, but in their hearts they will not know me.' You see, the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose.

by Christian and Proud Sat Dec 31, 2011 20:17

All of this just shows that the moderator/poster in question along with the other 175,251 people of no religion in this country (source CSO http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationcl...2006/:) considers herself to be so much smarter and cooler than the 95% of us who believe and are proud of our religions. So much smarter that she has to resort to re-posting teenage mocking humour. I think she must be feeling very lonely and left out at this special time of the year for Christians, Muslims and Jews and should be pitied. Have a happy new year Wageslave and maybe by Easter you’ll have chilled out enough to at least have a chocolate egg in celebration.

by Sean Crudden Sat Dec 31, 2011 21:13

Well, Opus. We sang Once in Royal David's City during communion and from the point of view of music simply it went very well. As far as I am concerned it was for you. There are two additional lines to add to those I have already given: "With the poor and mean and lowly lived on earth the saviour holy." Yes, we can all spit expletives when the humour strikes us. But how do you solve problems in today's world? Dying on a cross pales into insignificance compared to the common fate of many suicide bombers in today's world. Writing and politics are rather hopeless pursuits. The brakes are always on and at the end of the day someone who has taken no part in the argument makes the final decisions. But we underestimate the power of nature and the intelligence of natural laws. Absurd politics and absurd systems destroy people but they also carry within the seeds of their own destruction. People like you and I luxuriate in the position where we have already more or less run the gauntlet of life and survived to tell the tale. Maybe we did not work it all out; maybe we were just lucky? At the end of the day productive thought requires cool heads and a generous spirit. Anyway you cannot solve every problem instantaneously. We just have to keep working away at that as far as our faculties remains with us and circumstances permit. I have the naive conviction that properly used indymedia is a useful tool?

by W. Finnerty Sun Jan 01, 2012 08:59

An important part of our ancient Celtic heritage and culture may have been largely lost, and at present badly in need of being gently reinstalled in our collective consciousness?

The Castlestrange Stone (circa 100 BC):

Located beside the river Suck near Athleague in County Roscommon, Ireland.

Created (possibly?) to symbolise and to celebrate the human brain - the most sophisticated item of organic chemistry in the known universe.

If the intention really was to celebrate the human brain, then it is interesting to note that no obvious attempt has been made to indicate whether it belongs to a male or a female, a Celt or a non-Celt, a white person or a black one, or that of someone with brown, red, or yellow skin. Neither is there any obvious suggestion of what the person's social status, religion, or age might be.

Academic references exist which suggest that the ancient Celts may well have revered the human brain as a "pars pro toto" type symbol for representing EVERYTHING in the universe: both material and non-material (including the "non-material" forces which religious organisations embody and employ in the particular meaning they attribute to the word "spiritual"); and, as the brain actually is the instrument most responsible for all perceptions and feelings, such speculations may have considerable merit?

"EVERYTHING": the entity perceived by the human brain to be so vast, so complex, and so mysterious that it cannot be fully understood or described in an integrated way by the human mind, and which the ancient Celts may have thought of as GOD?

The very distinctive La Tène (Switzerland) style of art used for the Castlestrange Stone leaves little doubt about the ancient origins of the people and culture which produced it, and it is widely considered to be one of the best examples of Iron Age Celtic stone-art in existence.

A photograph of the Castlestrange Stone can be viewed at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheCelticParty/

The similarly ancient and closely related Turoe Stone, which is located approximately 25 miles to the south-west of the Castlestrange Stone, in the Turoe & Knocknadala (Hill of Parliament) area of East Galway, is believed to be the most important piece of Celtic stone-art in the world.

Some basic information relating to the Turoe Stone can be found at:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~williamfinnerty/protest/nov...e.htm

Epilogue:

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (Albert Einstein)

by Damien M - PW Sun Jan 01, 2012 13:29

Good point there, if offended close the window. If it was any way half funny then I would have stayed watching it indeed, but it was just the same boring crap from someone who picked an easy target/hadn't the balls to take on that other 'religious system'-you know the one where they chop people's hands off, women have no soul, if you offend Muhammed receive a death threat etc etc. Or a woman's opinion in Sharia court is worth half a man's or something. Who knows. Peace and goodwill to all! Not surprised wagesave posted this-it's something I've come to expect from a heavy handed censor/silencer of dissent i.e. other folk's opinions!

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Jan 01, 2012 14:12

I've travelled in Islamic societies, and stayed in Islamic family homes. The women pretty well rule the houshold, its a cultural divide, pre-Islamic. Its not so long since the righteous west ran to keeping the wimmin in the kitchen, barefoot n pregnant.

Your comment is equivelant to saying all Christians advocate crusading wars, inquisitions, child abuse..and need I continue? The moral superiority complex is not unique to any specific religion, its a common human inclination. You get fanatics in every religion, and political creed. And I think wageslaves point(and humour is always a subjective call)was that the smug gluttonfest just passed is a commercial fiasco of vast pretension.

And its justification is the fabricated fiction of a fantasy character developed after editing by the corporate Roman priesthood of whatever records were available..and then mutated through a madison ave/coca-cola/hollywood creation to get us to empty our pockets into the corporate trough, hyped to FKN heaven day and night for months in advance.

Its not actually an islamic festival, so context comes into play. Though Mulims are quite happy to accept the prophetic status of the Nazerene birth celebrated.

Many find the whole FKN thing a pain the arse, and I'm quite happy to allow everyone any excuse for a party, but it does grow tiresome.
Personally, and I'm not alone, I am glad to see the back of it. But have many merry ones anyway.

by Tomás Tue Jan 03, 2012 15:57

This post is beyond disgraceful that doesn't even respect the guidelines of the site, it's not funny and mocks Christ in a most sinister manner. What the editors have demonstrated is that they are a mirror of Irish societies dark contempt for Catholicism not a critically informed alternative to the dominate media that supports empire.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jan 03, 2012 16:45

Given the record of your imperial Roman clergy, as disclosed in countless reports in recent years, I'd have to ask is it more sinister than indoctrinating kids in obedience through superstitious rites; and and then raping them and abusing them before recycling them to fresh pastures of 'let us prey' violence and torture and covering their tracks??

And I'm not joking. Your Christ said 'suffer the litle children'..not make the little children suffer.

Do reply. I'm curious.

by Tomás Tue Jan 03, 2012 17:56

Opus your pervious diatribes demonstrate that feeding trolls is pointless. However Christ is the only person in the history of humanity who confronts and defeats evil. He does this with the weapons of non-violence, forgiveness and enemy love. Look to the lives of the saints those whom the Church holds up as authentic witness of the Church's faith and you will see those who resist empire, who break the cycle of violence and who live lives of freedom and love for their neighbor. Look at the greatest people of the 20 century and you find a common theme. They all live their lives based on St Matthew's Gospel (Ch25). Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King and Gandhi. Could I invite you to shake off the dark cloud of cynicism and hurt which permeate every word, sentence and intent in your posts. I say this as someone who suffers the same darkness as we all do. But it does not have to control your life. Everything you have posted is full of anger and hate, I am guessing because your heart is filled with anger and hate. Appropriate responses to injustice yes, but not a dynamic to control your live. It will only destroy you. Gaze on the infant Jesus in his vulnerability in the Crib and follow your hearts response to him. If not instead of vomiting your hate filled speech all over this comment section, respect how offensive this video is and stand up for religious freedom.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jan 03, 2012 20:09

..is offensive.

And sanctimonious claptrap that brings me back to the claustrophobic sermonisng of my indoctrinated childhood.

Ghandi was a Hindu, and Martin L King a freethinking practitioner of actual Christianity, unlike the instiutution you defend so ineptly with you sentimental tripe.

You should read more history, and less of the Jewish folk history of the bible, which simply means 'book'.

Socrates, Buddha and many more preceded him by 5 centuries. He didn't write the bible, he preached, like most wandering desert Rabbis.

You keep on worshiping your baby-doll idol, some of us prefer the living, as did the Nazarene, according to reports.

by Tomás Tue Jan 03, 2012 21:21

Matthew 25 and the Cross meditate on both of them. Victory to the Lamb!

by pat c Tue Jan 03, 2012 23:16

Only if its a mutant lamb with claws and fangs.

I was offline since 23/12 so I missed the debate up to now. I support Wageslaves decision to post this vid. some people just don't understand the idea of separation of church and state, Why shouldn't religions be mocked?Surely they should be strong enough to take a little poke. Is your own faith so weak its going to be shaken by this?

Mocking religion doesn't mean thaty you support Imperialism or Zionism. I condemn the burning of the Mosque in the Wes t Bank by Zionist extremists .

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Jan 04, 2012 09:00

Was an implement of torture, humiliation and execution. Why do you worship such an obscenity?
I thought your cult had progressed to burning its heretics.

And the lamb lost, I had it with mint sauce for the solstice dinner.

Your irrational rant of mumbo jumbo is not a great argument for your Roman cult. Try thinking one day, just for the craic.

by Damien M - PW Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:06

Tomás I don't know why you quote the Bible, your church doesn't preach it. (And certainly doesn't live by the way of it's founder). In fact, the good book was banned in 1229 at the Council of Valencia, and not available for the common man until hundreds of years later. When the Bible clearly calls the Pope, the Vatican and the EU names such as whores, devils etc then it would have had good reason to ban it woulden't they Tomás? Worship the Pope or suffer the Papal Inquisition? Sign this sheet of paper and say nothing about the child abuse you suffered? Shall we sell some of these priceless treasures and feed some hungry kids? Opus, the Roman Catholic Church worships a lot of things it shouldn't-statues, crosses, diamond and jewel encrusted tiaras and crosses, men dressed in ridiculous red and purple garb. Tomás, something to mull over- Revelation 14-"Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a whore (Vatican) sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet (colours of the Vatican), and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH... Rev 17:9-"The seven heads are seven hills, on which the whore sits." ROME! THE CITY OF 7 HILLS! The only Church that has cavorted with Kings and committed obsceneties throughout the ages is the RCC. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news T! VICARIOUS FILLE DEI, or something like that, which is the Pope's title, Roman Numerals = 666.

"How much is that tiara in the window.."

Do this in memory of me? WTF?!

by Sean Crudden Wed Jan 04, 2012 13:18

I thought William Finnerty's posts were valuable and in tune with the general objectives of indymedia. Calm, reasonable, informative, interesting. Most of the rest of this thread has degenerated to a level that would be a disgrace to an undergraduate debating society. Anyway I want to make the general point that the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in any sense an established or establishment church in this country. Humbled by its sinful past? Then there is the question of whether society should shun all religion or be bereft of any obeisance to gods of any description? Has liturgy any function in Irish life? Would western culture be better without Palestrina, Bach or El Greco.

by oogabooga Wed Jan 04, 2012 13:48

Take this thread as a microcosmic snapshot for the state of the Irish left...

by Contrarian Wed Jan 04, 2012 13:56

I support Wageslaves decision to post this vid. some people just don't understand the idea of separation of church and state, Why shouldn't religions be mocked?Surely they should be strong enough to take a little poke. Is your own faith so weak its going to be shaken by this?

What a refreshingly liberal approach to freedom of speech. And from an unexpected quarter too! Would that such abmirable tolerance was extended to other topics on Indymedia!

Why shouldn't political ideologies be mocked? Surely they should be strong enough to take a little poke. Is the true ideological believers faith so weak its going to be shaken by this?

For the record, I also support wageslave's right to post this vid. I would have preferred she showed sufficient good taste not to.

by `pat c Wed Jan 04, 2012 14:05

I agree political ideologies should be mocked. I'd be the first to mock Lenin, Marx, Trotsky, Bakunin, Makhno etc.

I have poked fun at the "prophet" as well as christianity.

Start off a thread mocking political ideologies, I'll join in.

by pat c Wed Jan 04, 2012 14:19

Well, this will offend a lot of people but its an example of whats out there. I don't like the image but I'm not going to go on a jihad because it exists. Some right-wing Zionists idea of fun.

Now we could discuss as to why its wrong to compare Mo' to Hitler: Mo was no different than your average despot of his age. I could tie myself in knots about Marx & Engels and how they can't be held responsible for Stalin. How Lenin had his good points, but....

The image doesn't shake my beliefs. Back to reading Marxs Sociological Writings now.

by Sean Crudden Wed Jan 04, 2012 14:50

I thought this thread was about religion. Where does Joseph Djugashvili come into it? Is it a valid stance to mock everything? Surely there are some things we hold dear and would, at least, hesitate to mock? In general taunts and mockery are the weapons of the bully intellectual and otherwise. Why not be positive and outline what it is we would like to do or what kind of activity we would like to take place in a "god" context or just in a human and community context. What about a little music, pageantry, dancing; without the benefit of the gods Ethanol or Mammon?

by pat c Wed Jan 04, 2012 14:56

The debate has developed about belief systems and what people find offensive. Religion? Well Uncle Joe was a spoiled priest.

by pat c Wed Jan 04, 2012 14:56

The debate has developed about belief systems and what people find offensive. Religion? Well Uncle Joe was a spoiled priest.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Jan 04, 2012 15:12

So I have to argue, its me predisposition..
Mohammed differed from the run of tribal leaders in Arabia in that he set out to break the tribal blinkers and expand the world-view of his contemporaries with a universalist creed of humanitarian inclusion for any who would accept there was a bigger tribe...as did JC to try and break the sectarian Judaism of his time..thats why they both ruffled the feathers of the local voodoo priests.
Buddha was also persecuted for similar reasons and Socrates threw back the hemlock in contempt for the narrow hypocritical provincialism of his society and offended the Athenian gods(well, their minders).

The usual counter-revolutions saw the priesthoods reclaiming the new doctrines into sectarian divisions which are again being promoted by the divisive conquerors..and losing the inherent universalisms( the word 'catholic' is synonymous with the word 'universal'). Hence Roman Catholic is an oxymoron, with its demand for 'baptism' into THEIR(possessive) exclusive Catholicity anchored firmly in imperial Rome, a culture adept at incorporating all deities into its pantheon. Just as National Socialism is oxymoronically contradictory given that socialism must be internationalist in the modern age, we cannot revert to new super-tribalisms...time is unidirectional to our physical and social existence as a species.
Nazism was the consequence of ultranationalism wedded to the unreflecting ideologicalisng(is that a wurd?) of Marx's ideas which were perverted into a tool of corporate nation-state expansionary industrial capital.

Any who did not conform to the new imposed interpretations had to be eliminated as heretics. Ditto Stalinism, and its nationalist variations.
Terminology atrophied chokes thought, development and growth. Result, psychological death. What, I would contend, ST Coleridge was referring to in the Ancient Mariner as 'death in life'.
The current universalist creed of war-economics (competition of all against all)is just a rationalising of our basic animal survival instincts, once manifest as worship of Mars(overtly, Mars is also the deity of the MARt and MARket)). It is now masked by pretences of worship of these peace-directed creeds' founders, in competion for verbal and ritualist domination, again contradictions of the original intention.

So feel free to argue. We can all rest in peace, later.

by Sean Crudden - impero Wed Jan 04, 2012 15:37

Hi Pat. A happy new year to you and all. Yes there are probably a few angles to this discussion now. Belief systems are difficult to discuss. I really do not know what you believe in; I hardly know what I believe in myself! And in the last analysis it is probably impossible to isolate and separate religious and political beliefs. One probably springs out of the other or, at least, one influences the other. That idea of separation of church and state is probably just a bit of legal rationalisation, a myth, a piece convenient fiction. But the idea of festival, birth, father, saviour, Santa Claus, gathering; all of these kinds of things have a sort of primaeval force in our community that comes before politics and the whole nexus of feelings and ideas fructify and are magnified at this time of the year; a time of endings and a time of beginnings. Quite a lot of people including myself feel drawn into this folk play and maybe we are too smug happy and self-satisfied. One is aware of the isolation homeless people feel, the mentally ill, prisoners, people burdened with debt. There are others who despise the tinsel scene feel superior and above the whole gormless multitude pour out vitriol scorn and induce guilt in the rest of us who are trying to be warm hopeful loving people. In general do you believe in the tough way or the easy way?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Jan 04, 2012 16:19

Try putting your faith in scepticism. Its not as painful as it sounds. It allows you to legitimately change your mind when fresh information arrives, thus allowing your mind to grow.

Thats the  big idea. Grow your own mind.

Everyone has a starter kit. All it takes is two brain cells. You obviously have at least four if you are literate. Throw out the blind faith in other peoples dogma and just think.

Any pain is purely imaginary. And the beauty is you can keep your doubts intact.

by Fair play Wed Jan 04, 2012 18:26

In the intersts of balance and all that, here's Andrew Klavan asking Does Islam Suck? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPzC0ZEZ8NQ&feature=relmfu

Caption: Video Id: sPzC0ZEZ8NQ Type: Youtube Video
Does Islam Suck - Andrew Klavan

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Jan 04, 2012 21:59

Reminded me of a bad pep-talk by a gobshite in an insurance company I once did a training course for way back when the fungus on me wall was still only a passing virus. Hilarious..

by Sean Crudden Wed Jan 04, 2012 23:28

Hi Opus. I thought I was talking to Pat but he seems to have gone away; a thing you never do. Well I think I might as well try to grow hair on my head at this stage as to grow my mind. And really I am sceptical about counsels of virtue coming from a diabolical source. Candidly I think there is a lot to be sceptical about on this thread. But then your opinions and mine are like oil and water. Do you like the god Ethanol?

by pat c Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:16

Keep trying to grow the hair on your head, if you succeed let me know, I could do with some as well.

Its not a case of sneering at the festivities, I celebrate the Winter Solstice at this time of the year. Why should one belief be raised above others? The Xtians hijacked a Pagan Festival. Now I'm not a Pagan or maybe I'm a Pagan Agnostic, but I see the Morrigan as an Archetype and an inspiration. I won't get annoyed if anyone mocks her though. But watch out for crows if you do.

Every day I get Xtian symbols in the face, even in the railway station in Cork theres a statue of their lady. Don't be surprised if people hit back.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:50

..if we ask sean he might say a prayer to her to turn off that bleedin angelus gong on me radio.

Ethanol, sean?
King Arthur G, as befits an ex-pupil of Jamebo, is mine..though I dabble in the Bacchinalia and drameen by times. More than i should, there are better more healthy chemical lifts to be found, but the vitners control the law to keep us on their toxins.

Ever strike you that toxin is the same root as intoxicated?

And I dont do virtue...I'm from the vicious circle remember.

by pat c Thu Jan 05, 2012 13:07

Mock it at your perl.

Sweden recognises new file-sharing religion Kopimism

File-sharing is a religious ceremony according to the church leader

A "church" whose central tenet is the right to file-share has been formally recognised by the Swedish government.

The Church of Kopimism claims that "kopyacting" - sharing information through copying - is akin to a religious service.

The "spiritual leader" of the church said recognition was a "large step".

But others were less enthusiastic and said the church would do little to halt the global crackdown on piracy.

“
Start Quote

It doesn't mean illegal file-sharing will become legal, any more than if 'Jedi' was recognised as a religion everyone would be walking around with light sabres”

Mark Mulligan
Music analyst
The Swedish government agency Kammarkollegiet finally registered the Church of Kopimism as a religious organisation shortly before Christmas, the group said.

"We had to apply three times," said Gustav Nipe, chairman of the organisation.

The church, which holds CTRL+C and CTRL+V (shortcuts for copy and paste) as sacred symbols, does not directly promote illegal file sharing, focusing instead on the open distribution of knowledge to all.

It was founded by 19-year-old philosophy student and leader Isak Gerson. He hopes that file-sharing will now be given religious protection.

"For the Church of Kopimism, information is holy and copying is a sacrament. Information holds a value, in itself and in what it contains and the value multiplies through copying. Therefore copying is central for the organisation and its members," he said in a statement.

"Being recognised by the state of Sweden is a large step for all of Kopimi. Hopefully this is one step towards the day when we can live out our faith without fear of persecution," he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16424659

by Abbess Saint Gobnaid Thu Jan 05, 2012 16:18

Please don't forget the by now almost completely forgotten original Celtic Christians who liked to live the "Céile Dé" (Partner/Companion of God) way of life, and who still, though very few in number at the present time, find that approach to "Life on Earth" much more preferable to other forms of religious belief (particularly the very dogmatic and authoritarian ones).
 
 "Céli Dé or Culdees were originally members of ascetic Christian monastic and eremitical communities of Ireland, Scotland and England in the Middle Ages. The term is used of St. John the Apostle, of a missionary from abroad recorded in the Annals of the Four Masters at the year 806, and of Óengus Céile Dé, the well-known monk and author of Tallaght. "Culdee" is an anglicisation of Céli Dé (plural of Céile Dé, lit. "client/companion of God"). Boece's term is culdei. In Scottish Latin sources they are often called Kelidei."

by wageslave - (personal capacity) Thu Jan 05, 2012 17:46

This video clip is an interesting take on the origins of the christian faith and is food for thought if nothing else:




Speak of the devil! ;-) this second clip was on tv3 last night.
Its not particularly inspiring television but here's some examples where religious faith without questioning ends up. You'll notice that two of these cults are based largely on christian ideas and theology so that doctrine is as useful a tool of deception as any other.



The interesting thing is, mainstream religious faiths such as catholicism do pretty much the same things except often in a slightly softer more palatable manner. Taking money from the faithful ("silent"collections, property left in wills etc), alienating non religious friends and family, controlling the thinking of their followers (captive audience every sunday / presence at births, deaths and strong control over the message in primary schools, retreats, novenas, etc) , no public questioning of fundamental basis of doctrine allowed (e.g. this thread?), targetting vulnerable unsophisticated people or those with weak personalities, insecurities or serious life problems (cmac, AA, CURA abortion counselling, the african missions etc etc.)
And wouldn't you also be as horrified as you are at my saying this as you would be if the moonies went on missions to africa ostensibly helping whilst with an underlying agenda of "winning souls" and touting their faith to innocent tribes? Its not all really as innocent as people would like us to believe. I mean look at catholic hierarchy's blatant support for Pinochet for example. And their attitude to victims of child rape in Ireland. Or the widespread deaths in catholic areas of africa due to the stigma of condom use, only grudgingly addressed recently by the vatican with weasel words. Many of those at the top have only one religion: power. They probably don't believe in any gods either!

By all means make up imaginary friends and talk to them directly yourself if you must. Its your life and it's very likely all there is. but you should be very wary of anybody trying to act as a proxy to your imaginary friends. You don't need a middle man or a big expensive building or a guy with a long beard and a funny name waving incense around and charging you, hypnotising you and telling you whats right and wrong, or for that matter some hate filled old books of fiction written by medievil tribesmen.
You certainly don't need people distorting your politics and bending the ear of or hamstringing your political leaders because it's the will of your imaginary friend. just do it yourself directly whenever you like. In fact you should take a similar attitude to your politics too and do it directly yourself instead of relying on a proxy. I guess that old bad thinking habit tends to creep into other areas of life too doesn't it? Not really surprising though since it's pumped into you daily from the age of about 4 or 5.

And you can still get together with your fellow man to sing or grow crops or protest against injustice if it's the community and solidarity you want. And we need that more than ever. Why waste your best energies helping empower a bunch of rich evil old white men who are helping fuck up the planet? Fuck it, lets try to make this planet a paradise for our descendants instead! It really could be a beautiful place if we looked after it properly y'know. But no..we're always looking forward to the next life and letting this one go to shit.

All ideas including religious ones need to be put through exactly the same scrutiny without exception. No special cases. Otherwise anything goes and if you're lucky you only end up with this kind of cult stuff. Or worse, a dark age, a Spanish inquisition or a bunch of nutcases with direct access to the US government and military machine intent on guiding some nutty apocalyptic prophesy to fruition in Jerusalem, or for that matter their nemeses in the Islamic world, believing they will have some great sexy romps in paradise if they blow themselves up and kill a bunch of folk in the pursuit of Holy Jihad.

And contrary to popular belief, you can be a good person and live a good life FOR ITS OWN SAKE rather than in return for some eternal reward. We don't all need threats of eternal hell or blissful eternal sex to do the right thing.

Personally I'm just tired of rolling over every time someone is "offended" because of their daft religious ideas and having to live in an asylum where people believe in a kind of collective hallucination whereby there is an afterlife with mystical pie and virgins for all.
This is not the time of Galileo, we have to endure this ludicrous state of affairs with hypocritical religious ideas and symbolism shoved in our faces every day so its time religious people learned to take the odd joke and stop having any control over our schools and politics and being state sanctioned to tell blatant misogynistic and homophobic lies to our children. We need to learn to take responsibility for our own actions, to live in the real world. Because what's coming down the line is not pretty. Our children need the proper intellectual tools to handle it. Its time we stopped lying to them and teaching them harmful thinking habits.

There are no gods. Just rich people and poor people and a big flying cake which we all live on. We need to start seeing this and getting down to the business of looking after the cake properly and working out a fair way of sharing out the cake in a sustainable manner and taking the tough decisions needed regarding population growth etc. instead of chasing phantoms and fighting over them or running around amassing little green bits of paper. There may not be a heaven but if we don't start growing up as a species mighty fast, there may very well be a hell.

some protest links:
-------------------------

Im not a big fan of GW but we should have been allowed to watch FITNA and make up our own minds on the "religion of peace"

Many replies to this clip showed video of american soldiers brutalising muslim people but they really missed the point. Of course all that is horrific and wrong but thats mainly just greed driven corporate and government agendas acting out on the unfortunate people sitting on the resources. Its rich people oppressing poor people. GW's clip addresses something completely different: the inherent violence in a religious text and it's incompatibility with the freedoms enjoyed in the netherlands. And yes I agree among religious books, it's not alone in being violent. And we might have our disagreements with people like the media villified AYAAN HIRSI ALI or GW or THEO VAN GOGH but there's no need to MURDER THEM because they don't believe your religion is compatible with the freedoms currently available in their society if Integration is not actively engaged in from BOTH SIDES. Also we should have been free to watch SUBMISSION PART 1 by Theo van Gogh, blood relation of the great vincent van gogh, who was killed largely because of this harmless clip. I publish it here in his memory since some religious nut shot him 8 times and cut his throat over it.



Here's one final link, which epitomised the new direction society has taken towards a new dark age in pandering to religion. The absurd fatwa against author Salman Rushdie we all turned a blind eye to. THE SATANIC VERSES>

As I said, you don't need to agree with these people but they have a right to say their piece too without being murdered or under constant death threats. After all, Imams daily threaten death and fatwas on people without anything like as much public censure. Its because of a strong dislike of these hypocritical death threats and murders and threatening speeches that I post these links and videos here. Thats the reality of "peaceful religion". Yeah.. Peaceful until it gets the power to be whatever way it wants. then "you better watch out" indeed!! ;-)

And to answer a previous commenter, At least if indy hides a trolling political post, you still can read that post any time you like on the site and nobody dies!

by wageslave - (personal capacity) Thu Jan 05, 2012 19:25

OD:"And I think wageslaves point(and humour is always a subjective call)was that the smug gluttonfest just passed is a commercial fiasco of vast pretension.
And its justification is the fabricated fiction of a fantasy character developed after editing by the corporate Roman priesthood of whatever records were available..and then mutated through a madison ave/coca-cola/hollywood creation to get us to empty our pockets into the corporate trough, hyped to FKN heaven day and night for months in advance. "

Yep! that was pretty much it. Glad at least one person got the clip somewhat in perspective! ;-)

-wageslave (personal capacity)

Ps: I was intending to hide this thread as a bit of a lapse of judgement on my part but since there were so many comments, I can't really do that now so apostasies er...apologies to all(ah!). And since I'm up to my neck, might as well go the whole hog and be your internet surrogate hate figure for the week ;-)

sheesh! 74 comments and counting... I guess the only thing we can get people to unite on around here is vein popping annoyance at a moderator! ;-)

Nothing like a bit of controversy to wake people up and get 'em typing though! Pity we can't muster the same degree of energy and vitriol against our class enemies in the real world instead of wasting it defending a fiction.

some responses:

@Thomas, actually we don't need the fake promise of some great reward or some medievil book or other to tell us we should try to be nice to each other. Also, I'm fed up of religious types always giving religion the credit for it when people rise out of the mud a little.

What a truly low opinion christians must have of their own supreme being if they think she is so petty that she can't take a joke and she needs them to close down websites on her behalf. If I were her, I'd be more pissed off at them than Deek!

By popular request I'll make sure to check out what Deek has to say at Ramadan too. Not fair just "picking on" those "poor" Christians, although the fact that it was CHRISTMAS might have had something to do with that particular choice, I dunno.

When I say "poor" of course I'm not including all the vast wealth hoarded in the Vatican or all the thousands of properties willed to the church in Ireland by superstitious frightened old ladies fearing death, or all the many extensive school and church properties in Ireland or all the money transferred into offshore trusts recently by the holy orders from this and other countries to avoid civil payouts in abuse cases or any of that kind of stuff ..... Nor by "picking on", do I mean things like bullying beatings and buggery or anything nasty like the Spanish inquisition got up to in spreading gods love. The only torture involved here was optionally enduring some bum notes and bad comedy.

Most people just thought the comedy itself was pretty crap. Fair enough.
Maybe I should probably have posted something by TIM MINCHIN instead ;-)




You'd think, given what christians have gotten away with throughout history, they'd be willing to take a little joke about it now and then? I mean atheists burned nobody at the stake for not being atheists or being witches, didn't systematically use their atheism to gain positions of power over people's children so they could systematically bugger them, didn't use concepts of atheism to perpetuate worldwide guilt and repression about sexuality, don't treat female atheists as somehow lesser atheists, didn't amass huge fortunes largely from the poor by pushing atheism on them, (well apart from one or two authors ;-) or didn't fight and kill people in bloody wars over special atheist bits of land etc etc did they?
Still it's always the atheists that are the real bastards isn't it? Usually for daring to poke their godless heads above the parapet now and then and crack a few jokes. Yes they should just shut up and stay quietly hidden and stop pointing out the obvious fact that religion is mostly indefensible hokum and wooly thinking with little basis in fact and that the particular belief system one holds is more to do with geography than anything else.

The fact is, here in 2011 in our sophisticated and technologically advanced society, I don't believe we have escaped the grip of superstition anything like as much as people might think. I believe austerity and poverty will drive us right back into the arms of organised religion. In fact if you check you'll see that numbers of the faithful attending church are already rising in spite of all the recent devastating church scandals. Witness only yesterday evening, an expose on TV3 of several religious cults and charlatans preying on people's blind faith, and in the process making substantial sums of money and breaking up families. The cults in question were the "palmyrans" and the "house of prayer" (Achill), both based largely on catholic teachings. They also mentioned the old faithful "scientology". So it seems that teaching people that it's a virtue to believe things without questioning in school from a very young age is certainly not harmless. The large attendances at "house of prayer" on Achill seem to bear this out and are a cause for some concern I think.

Our national schools are still 80% in the control of the church. And when religious types get a bit of confidence up they clearly have no scruples about trying to restrict what other people should or should not be allowed to say, think and do with their own bodies. Witness how they immediately clamour to discuss shutting down this very website after someone merely posts a harmless video they are free to ignore. And no sign of that daft blasphemy law being repealed any time soon either.

So at the end of the day the real joke is on those of us of no faith who have to face daily life in what we can only perceive as a bit of an insane asylum. I guess the rest of you religious types could at least allow us an occasional joke about it! ;-)

*the opinions expressed here are solely those of wageslave not those of the site itself or other moderators on this site

by Sean Crudden Thu Jan 05, 2012 21:00

Hi Wageslave. Most people are as familiar with your brand of hokum as they are with their own and more or less dismiss or ignore it. Your argument lacks freshness; it's hackneyed and uninteresting; as writing your contribution is poverty stricken. It would be better if you stuck to the material presented on the thread. What exactly is it in these videos that you, Opus, et al, find so inspiring? I would prefer an answer that sticks to the images and sounds and not a lot of long-winded tiresome theorising.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Jan 05, 2012 21:07

..would prefer if you didn't take the fucking liberty of associating me with a post I haven't even had the time to get around to scanning.

That is the move of a smear tactician.

Have the fucking grace to apologise.